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Seeking Advice – Couple moving to France to live but both working in France

Seeking Advice – Couple moving to France to live but both working in France

Old Jan 23rd 2018, 9:45 am
  #16  
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Default Re: Seeking Advice – Couple moving to France to live but both working in France

Originally Posted by EuroTrash
I just re-read your first post and I see you're intending to rent out your home in the UK, so in fact if it's rented out from the moment you come over, you would be in a stronger position. My point was that if you meet both sets of residence criteria then you can't unilaterally decide to ignore any claims HMRC has on you, it would have to be agreed by both tax authorities and getting out of HMRC's clutches can be quite sticky. If your house isn't rented out then under 2c of the tax treaty:
"if he has an habitual abode in both Contracting States or in neither
of them, he shall be deemed to be a resident only of the State of
which he is a national"
https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...-_in_force.pdf

If it is rented out and you stay in hotels all the time you're in the UK, that wouldn't apply. It would in any case be an unusual situation if HMRC wanted to class you as resident in the UK because tax is normally done on a household basis in France, and if your partner's company puts her on a French work contract she would be 100% solid resident here, so that may help you too. But it's not totally clear cut, and if you want HMRC to treat you as non resident and give you cross border worker status, rather than continuing to treat you as resident, then you will have to convince them that you are a "leaver".

I assume you've already studied the provisional agreement on workers rights
https://ec.europa.eu/commission/site...ison_table.pdf
"Those who are working as a frontier
worker on the specified date fall within
the scope of the Withdrawal Agreement
for as long as they retain the status of a
frontier worker in the State of work. Such
workers retain the rights they currently
enjoy to enter and to work in the State of
work. The rights they enjoy in their
country of residence, including the right
to work, are similarly protected.

A frontier worker, as defined in EU law, is
a UK national or an EU citizen pursuing
genuine and effective work as an
employed or self-employed person in one
or more States and who resides in
another State (irrespective of whether the
person also works in the State of
residence), unless or until they no longer
retain the status of a worker in the State
of work (equivalent to that as defined in
Directive 2004/38/EC) or they cease to
work across the frontier into the State of
work in accordance with Articles 45 and
49 TFEU and Regulation (EU) No
492/2011."
So if HMRC agrees you are a cross border worker you should be fine as long as there is a deal. In the event of no deal, who knows, but if your partner's employer puts her on a French employment contract, salarié may be a more secure status than cross border worker and you'd be a family member so that might help as regards residency. But whether you would still be able to go and work in the UK, if you are selling a service and services aren't part of the trade deal, qui sait.



Unfortunately that doesn't compute. Qualifying for residency is a box ticking exercise, you need to meet certain criteria. You've probably read cases in the UK press about EU nationals who have been living and paying taxes in the UK for years, and now they're being refused residency on a technicality. If it was just a case of, live there and pay taxes and that is enough to make you resident, there wouldn't be all the angst and uncertainty and you wouldn't be reading those stories. Same in France, you can bet there are lots of Brits who've been living here 365 days a year and paying taxes here and have no home anywhere other than France, but they won't technically qualify for a carte de séjour under current rules because they haven't met all the conditions. The two likely technicalities are either that they're inactifs and their income hasn't consistently met the threshold, or that they don't have health cover.

Point being that just because you are living in an EU state, doesn't prove you are entitled to be. The authorities know there are EU citizens living here irregularly but it's tolerated. But it remains to be seen how much tolerance there will be for Brits after Brexit.

What I'm suggesting is, be aware that there is a big difference between living here regularly and living here irregularly. You can't assume that simply spending time here is enough, you have to make sure you tick the boxes. After 5 years' legal residence you qualify for full residents' rights, whereas no matter how long you may have lived here irregularly, it will never qualify you for any rights.

Another point to consider about paying tax is that if you move in Dec 2018, your French tax office probably won't want a tax return from you until April 2020 and you won't get your first avis d'imposition until around July 2020.
Thank you very useful. A couple of points.

1. What if I work for a French Umbrella company. I would then be a French employee. See www.freelanceinfrance.com

2. A Carte de Sejour is easy to qualify for. I would have sufficient income and getting healthcare is easy too.
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Old Jan 23rd 2018, 10:06 am
  #17  
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Default Re: Seeking Advice – Couple moving to France to live but both working in France

Originally Posted by Kev946
Thank you very useful. A couple of points.

2. A Carte de Sejour is easy to qualify for. I would have sufficient income and getting healthcare is easy too.
Maybe, but you would only obtain it after 5 years' residency, as per:

https://www.service-public.fr/partic...sdroits/F22116

Are you confusing the Carte de Séjour with Résidence after 3 months?
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Old Jan 23rd 2018, 10:20 am
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Default Re: Seeking Advice – Couple moving to France to live but both working in France

1. Yes, a French umbrella company could work. From the point of view of qualifying for residence it would probably be the best option. But you would pay approx 50% charges in social contributions etc so it wouldn't be the most tax efficient. It also wouldn't solve any eventual issues over a French resident providing services into Great Britain post Brexit, this is an unknown and hopefully won't be an issue, if it is I would imagine there will be a way round it, but there is a degree of risk. Definitely have a word with Challenges if you're considering that, they're very helpful and approachable and they'll be able to give good advice. They have probably looked beyond Brexit and worked out some scenarios inasfar as it's likely to impact on their clients.

2. As said before I think, the criteria are different according to status. Income is only a criterion for inactifs exercising their rights, it isn't a criterion for workers. The criterion for workers is to have an employment contract or a business structure (siret number). The rules say that to have worker status the work has to be genuine and effective and not so marginal as to be purely accessory (basically to exclude inactifs with hobby businesses claiming to be workers). As long as you're classed as a worker, it doesn't matter how low your income is.

However, if you're applying for a carte de séjour as a resident worker, then you would be expected to be paying into the French social security system (unless you're a cross border commuter covered by a workers S1). Private healthcare is OK for an inactif, but not for a worker because living and working in France but not paying into the system is not an option.
Le portail du service public de la Sécurité sociale / Se désaffilier de la sécurité sociale� (...)
Ce que dit le droit français
Toute personne qui travaille et réside en France est obligatoirement affiliée au régime de Sécurité sociale dont elle relève.

Whether you could apply as an inactif on the basis that you won't be working all the time, I have no idea. I guess it would depend if you have sufficient unearned income such as rental income. Claiming to be inactif could be tricky if you then produce evidence of earned income, because by definition an inactif doesn't have earned income.

However, an umbrella company would put you into the system beyond any doubt.
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Old Jan 23rd 2018, 10:30 am
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Default Re: Seeking Advice – Couple moving to France to live but both working in France

Originally Posted by dmu
Maybe, but you would only obtain it after 5 years' residency, as per:

https://www.service-public.fr/partic...sdroits/F22116

Are you confusing the Carte de Séjour with Résidence after 3 months?
Yes DMU is correct, don't overlook this. You don't get permanent residency straight away, you have to spend five years collecting evidence to show that you have continuously met the criteria before you can apply for permanent residency. Moving here and starting the process pre-Brexit is important because it means you will be allowed an opportunity to stay long enough to gain full rights after 5 years, provided you continue to meet the criteria (you've started so you are given a chance to finish). But simply being here on B-day doesn't fast track you to permanent residency rights.
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Old Jan 23rd 2018, 10:44 am
  #20  
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Default Re: Seeking Advice – Couple moving to France to live but both working in France

Thank you all very useful.

Re Carte de Sejour. I'm referring to the UE version for less than 5 years residency.

See Carte de séjour - Working together to protect the rights ​of UK citizens living in France

Is this not an option. Until recently I also thought you needed 5 years residency
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Old Jan 23rd 2018, 10:58 am
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Default Re: Seeking Advice – Couple moving to France to live but both working in France

The difference is that for the first 5 years you have to renew the card annually, which involves producing the same evidence each year. If during those 5 years your situation changes and you no longer qualify, your card won't be renewed and you lose the right to reside.
When you've successfully renewed your temporary 4 times, you will apply for a permanent card. Once you have that, it doesn't matter if your situation changes, you have full unconditional rights (unless you lose them by leaving France for several years or something).

At present you don't actually need to apply for a card, it doesn't affect your rights in any way. If for some reason you need to prove your rights but you never bothered getting a card, it just means you have to collect a boatload of paperwork every time; a card would save you doing that, you'd just show the card instead. But in fact you very rarely do have to prove your rights beyond showing an EU passport. But presumably after Brexit, all Brits will be told they have to get one card or the other, because Brits will potentially be immigrants subject to immigration procedures, rather than EU citizens who can come and go as they please.

Last edited by EuroTrash; Jan 23rd 2018 at 11:07 am.
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Old Jan 23rd 2018, 11:42 am
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Default Re: Seeking Advice – Couple moving to France to live but both working in France

Originally Posted by Kev946
Thank you all very useful.

Re Carte de Sejour. I'm referring to the UE version for less than 5 years residency.

See Carte de séjour - � Working together to protect the rights� ​of UK citizens living in France

Is this not an option. Until recently I also thought you needed 5 years residency
I'm always wary of unofficial links, but at least the above one leads you to an official French Service-Public site!
Please take everything that ET is saying on board....
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Old Jan 23rd 2018, 12:06 pm
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Default Re: Seeking Advice – Couple moving to France to live but both working in France

Originally Posted by dmu
I'm always wary of unofficial links, but at least the above one leads you to an official French Service-Public site!
Please take everything that ET is saying on board....
The Remain in France site actually seems very well researched and useful.
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Old Jan 23rd 2018, 12:34 pm
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Default Re: Seeking Advice – Couple moving to France to live but both working in France

Originally Posted by EuroTrash
The Remain in France site actually seems very well researched and useful.
My view at the moment is it's worth getting a card just before Brexit.
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Old Jan 23rd 2018, 1:13 pm
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Default Re: Seeking Advice – Couple moving to France to live but both working in France

Originally Posted by Kev946
My view at the moment is it's worth getting a card just before Brexit.
France has indicated that cards that Brits obtain as EU citizens pre brexit will need to be swapped for a new card after brexit, but that the exchange procedure will be very easy and a generous timescale of around 2 years will be allowed. But nothing is set in stone yet. A lot of Brits who never bothered before, are now applying for cards, so your view is shared by many.
(Personally I'm not going to bother, but that's because I don't anticipate having a problem proving over 5 years legal residence when the time comes, so I don't see the point in going through the process until I have to.)
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Old Jan 23rd 2018, 2:02 pm
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Default Re: Seeking Advice – Couple moving to France to live but both working in France

Originally Posted by EuroTrash
France has indicated that cards that Brits obtain as EU citizens pre brexit will need to be swapped for a new card after brexit, but that the exchange procedure will be very easy and a generous timescale of around 2 years will be allowed. But nothing is set in stone yet. A lot of Brits who never bothered before, are now applying for cards, so your view is shared by many.
(Personally I'm not going to bother, but that's because I don't anticipate having a problem proving over 5 years legal residence when the time comes, so I don't see the point in going through the process until I have to.)
I can see your position. However for me arriving a few months before it could be a life saver.
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Old Jan 28th 2018, 12:57 pm
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Default Re: Seeking Advice – Couple moving to France to live but both working in France

In view of the recent weather patterns I think an umbrella company would probably be a profitable way to go.
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Old Jan 28th 2018, 1:15 pm
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Default Re: Seeking Advice – Couple moving to France to live but both working in France

Why do you think that pleas?
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Old Jan 28th 2018, 2:11 pm
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Default Re: Seeking Advice – Couple moving to France to live but both working in France

Sorry couldn't resist. Should have added Lol.
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