Go Back   British Expats / Living & Moving Abroad / Europe / France

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old Oct 26th 2017, 2:06 pm   #46
BE Forum Addict
 
Joined: Jan 2012
Location: Dépt 61
Posts: 3,040
EuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Right to live in France

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alianco View Post
This all sounding more possible, though I have one other question to throw into the mix. My wife has a pre-exisitng condition that involves regular drugs. I can guess how that will affect medical insurance, but does anyone know what affect this may have on signing up to the French healthcare system?
It makes no difference to joining PUMA. Nor need it affect the cost of top up insurance. Top up insurance is offered by two kinds of organisations, private insurance companies and "mutuelles". Mutuelles are controlled by a convention with the state that sets parameters on how they operate. By law they are not allowed refuse cover to anyone on the grounds of pre existing conditions, nor can they take pre existing conditions into account in setting premiums. Basically all they can take into account is age, sex, occupation and place of residence. So your wife won't be discriminated against in any way. (Private insurance companies are free to weight their premiums however they want, so if you have a good medical record you might get a better quote from a private provider but if you have pre existing conditions, go to a mutuelle.)

Under PUMA, most chronic conditions are classed as ALDs and all ongoing treatment/prescriptions for those particular conditions, once your doctor has officially recorded it as an ALD, are covered 100% by the state.

I honestly don't know why Brits worry so much about getting healthcare in France. OK so it's not always free at the point of delivery, but it's a good, fair, inclusive system and the level of care is generally excellent.
EuroTrash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Oct 26th 2017, 2:42 pm   #47
BE Forum Addict
 
Annetje's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2010
Location: Var, South of France
Posts: 1,058
Annetje has a reputation beyond reputeAnnetje has a reputation beyond reputeAnnetje has a reputation beyond reputeAnnetje has a reputation beyond reputeAnnetje has a reputation beyond reputeAnnetje has a reputation beyond reputeAnnetje has a reputation beyond reputeAnnetje has a reputation beyond reputeAnnetje has a reputation beyond reputeAnnetje has a reputation beyond reputeAnnetje has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Right to live in France

Quote:
Originally Posted by EuroTrash View Post
It makes no difference to joining PUMA. Nor need it affect the cost of top up insurance. Top up insurance is offered by two kinds of organisations, private insurance companies and "mutuelles". Mutuelles are controlled by a convention with the state that sets parameters on how they operate. By law they are not allowed refuse cover to anyone on the grounds of pre existing conditions, nor can they take pre existing conditions into account in setting premiums. Basically all they can take into account is age, sex, occupation and place of residence. So your wife won't be discriminated against in any way. (Private insurance companies are free to weight their premiums however they want, so if you have a good medical record you might get a better quote from a private provider but if you have pre existing conditions, go to a mutuelle.)

Under PUMA, most chronic conditions are classed as ALDs and all ongoing treatment/prescriptions for those particular conditions, once your doctor has officially recorded it as an ALD, are covered 100% by the state.

I honestly don't know why Brits worry so much about getting healthcare in France. OK so it's not always free at the point of delivery, but it's a good, fair, inclusive system and the level of care is generally excellent.
__________________
Annetje is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Oct 26th 2017, 3:47 pm   #48
Just Joined
 
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 23
Alianco is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: Right to live in France

That's all good to know, thanks.
Alianco is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Oct 29th 2017, 9:57 am   #49
Just Joined
 
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 23
Alianco is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: Right to live in France

Apologies to those longer standing members who have answered this question or something like it many times already, but I can't find a simple answer (if there is one) to this. If I live in France full time, stick my head above the parapet, pay into healthcare and taxes as an early retiree with income from property in UK (an inactif as I believe it is called), could I still return to the UK for short periods of work if absolutely necessary without upsetting my status in France. I have no plans to work in France since it all seems rather complex and my skills are probably not needed anyway, but should the need arise I can easily get some work in UK. Would French tax laws still see that all my income is coming from UK, taxed in UK and not change my tax status? Of course, no one can predict what reciprocal tax agreements may remain in place after brexit, but up to March 2019 is far enough in advance for me to be thinking.
A link to a ready answer will suffice if anyone has one.
Thanks
Alianco is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Oct 29th 2017, 10:30 am   #50
BE Forum Addict
 
Joined: Jan 2012
Location: Dépt 61
Posts: 3,040
EuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Right to live in France

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alianco View Post
If I live in France full time, stick my head above the parapet, pay into healthcare and taxes as an early retiree with income from property in UK (an inactif as I believe it is called), could I still return to the UK for short periods of work if absolutely necessary without upsetting my status in France. I have no plans to work in France since it all seems rather complex and my skills are probably not needed anyway, but should the need arise I can easily get some work in UK.
A link to a ready answer will suffice if anyone has one.
Thanks
In theory, under EU regulations, yes you are perfectly entitled to live in one EU state and work in another.
The only issue I can see might be with UK residence criteria which are very sticky. A French person going to work temporarily in the UK would have no issues, nor a UK person who has lived here for donkeys and/or worked or works here. But if you go back to work in the UK for significant lengths of time straight after a tax year for which you were UK resident, then depending on how many 'ties' you have to the UK this might result in the UK not classing you as a "leaver" - ie it would continue to regard you as a UK resident and taxpayer who spends time abroad as a visitor. HMRC doesn't like letting taxpayers out of their clutches But even if they do try to say you have never left the UK, I can't actually get my head round what practical difference that would make if you and France both agree that you live in France... I suppose it would depend how convincingly you meet the French criteria - if you don't work here and you don't have a fixed home here, you would be relying solely on the fact that you spend most of your time here, so from the French side too you would probably need to watch how long you actually do spend each side.
You could start here https://www.gov.uk/government/public...dence-test-srt and the best of British with it, they seem to have made it as complicated as they possibly can!

Last edited by EuroTrash; Oct 29th 2017 at 10:33 am.
EuroTrash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Oct 29th 2017, 12:58 pm   #51
Just Joined
 
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 23
Alianco is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: Right to live in France

Yeeees.....I think we will simply come to France and see how it pans out. I pay UK tax on my letting income and will spend my money in France. Everyone's a winner. Both countries have their hooks in me, though I don't expect either government to see it my way. Besides, what's the worst that can happen? Don't answer that.
Alianco is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Oct 29th 2017, 5:37 pm   #52
BE Forum Addict
 
Annetje's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2010
Location: Var, South of France
Posts: 1,058
Annetje has a reputation beyond reputeAnnetje has a reputation beyond reputeAnnetje has a reputation beyond reputeAnnetje has a reputation beyond reputeAnnetje has a reputation beyond reputeAnnetje has a reputation beyond reputeAnnetje has a reputation beyond reputeAnnetje has a reputation beyond reputeAnnetje has a reputation beyond reputeAnnetje has a reputation beyond reputeAnnetje has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Right to live in France

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alianco View Post
Yeeees.....I think we will simply come to France and see how it pans out. I pay UK tax on my letting income and will spend my money in France. Everyone's a winner. Both countries have their hooks in me, though I don't expect either government to see it my way. Besides, what's the worst that can happen? Don't answer that.


You're in a very similar position I am in, and it is not that bad !!!
__________________
Annetje is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Oct 29th 2017, 9:03 pm   #53
cyrian Male
BE Forum Addict
 
cyrian's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2009
Location: Scotland & Touraine [37]
Posts: 2,055
cyrian has a reputation beyond reputecyrian has a reputation beyond reputecyrian has a reputation beyond reputecyrian has a reputation beyond reputecyrian has a reputation beyond reputecyrian has a reputation beyond reputecyrian has a reputation beyond reputecyrian has a reputation beyond reputecyrian has a reputation beyond reputecyrian has a reputation beyond reputecyrian has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Right to live in France

Quote:
Originally Posted by EuroTrash View Post
In theory, under EU regulations, yes you are perfectly entitled to live in one EU state and work in another.
The only issue I can see might be with UK residence criteria which are very sticky. A French person going to work temporarily in the UK would have no issues, nor a UK person who has lived here for donkeys and/or worked or works here. But if you go back to work in the UK for significant lengths of time straight after a tax year for which you were UK resident, then depending on how many 'ties' you have to the UK this might result in the UK not classing you as a "leaver" - ie it would continue to regard you as a UK resident and taxpayer who spends time abroad as a visitor. HMRC doesn't like letting taxpayers out of their clutches But even if they do try to say you have never left the UK, I can't actually get my head round what practical difference that would make if you and France both agree that you live in France... I suppose it would depend how convincingly you meet the French criteria - if you don't work here and you don't have a fixed home here, you would be relying solely on the fact that you spend most of your time here, so from the French side too you would probably need to watch how long you actually do spend each side.
You could start here https://www.gov.uk/government/public...dence-test-srt and the best of British with it, they seem to have made it as complicated as they possibly can!
It doesn't matter if you meet the french criteria.
The double taxation treaty is designed to operate when both countries cannot agree. Normally, the countries come to an agreement and tax residency is decided by mutual agreement. However, where the countries both feel that the individual belongs to them, then the tax treaty trumps (no relation) the national tax rules.
Brexit has no effect on this because the tax treaty is not an EU treaty.
What Brexit may effect is the right of the person to live in the other country.
HTH
cyrian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Oct 29th 2017, 9:22 pm   #54
Just Joined
 
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 23
Alianco is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: Right to live in France

That's interesting. Nous devons vivre d'espoir, as I learnt to say when taking my sail boat of 1.4m draft down the Canal du Midi, ignoring the doom mongers who swore I'd never get through. And the Canal de Bourgogne, though the eclusier at the beginning who was supposed to check our draft and forbid us entry was pretty drunk and sent us on our way with a lovely Gallic shrug.
Alianco is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Oct 29th 2017, 9:30 pm   #55
BE Forum Addict
 
Joined: Jan 2012
Location: Dépt 61
Posts: 3,040
EuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Right to live in France

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyrian View Post
It doesn't matter if you meet the french criteria.
The double taxation treaty is designed to operate when both countries cannot agree. Normally, the countries come to an agreement and tax residency is decided by mutual agreement. However, where the countries both feel that the individual belongs to them, then the tax treaty trumps (no relation) the national tax rules.
Hi Cyrian, you've lost me there. Could you say it again in different words? Which tax treaty, because the FR>UK DTA as I understood it operates in every case when a person has income from two different countries because it clarifies what income sources are taxed where, to ensure the same income isn't taxed twice. I've never heard of it being settle the question of residence when a person meets two countries' residence criteria, I thought the treaty was literally just about income not about people, and that when residence isn't clear cut countries just have to decide between them on a case by case basis. Or is there another bit to the DTA that I haven't grasped, or is this a different treaty. Thanks Cyrian!
EuroTrash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Oct 29th 2017, 9:32 pm   #56
BE Forum Addict
 
Joined: Jan 2012
Location: Dépt 61
Posts: 3,040
EuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Right to live in France

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alianco View Post
Yeeees.....I think we will simply come to France and see how it pans out.
I think that's absolutely the best approach.
It's what I did too
EuroTrash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Oct 30th 2017, 12:22 am   #57
BE Enthusiast
 
Joined: Sep 2007
Location: North Kessock, Ross-shire Scotland and Treignac France
Posts: 424
Scots in Treignac is a name known to allScots in Treignac is a name known to allScots in Treignac is a name known to allScots in Treignac is a name known to allScots in Treignac is a name known to allScots in Treignac is a name known to allScots in Treignac is a name known to allScots in Treignac is a name known to allScots in Treignac is a name known to allScots in Treignac is a name known to allScots in Treignac is a name known to all
Default Re: Right to live in France

Quote:
Originally Posted by EuroTrash View Post
Hi Cyrian, you've lost me there. Could you say it again in different words? Which tax treaty, because the FR>UK DTA as I understood it operates in every case when a person has income from two different countries because it clarifies what income sources are taxed where, to ensure the same income isn't taxed twice. I've never heard of it being settle the question of residence when a person meets two countries' residence criteria, I thought the treaty was literally just about income not about people, and that when residence isn't clear cut countries just have to decide between them on a case by case basis. Or is there another bit to the DTA that I haven't grasped, or is this a different treaty. Thanks Cyrian!
The way I read it was that the Double Tax Agreement would define me as a resident of the UK if my economic activity was in the UK. As a retiree in receipt of a UK state pension, but more importantly a Scottish teachers pension which has to be taxed by HMRC then this would mean I could not be classed as a resident of France regardless of how many months I was in France.
As mentioned in another post, it would appear that French officials are only interested in the French system.


If I am correct, does it then follow that my healthcare would be the responsibility of the UK even if I lived in France for more than six months? This would appear contrary to most advice but the alternative is to be classed as a UK resident for taxation, but as a French resident for health
Scots in Treignac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Oct 30th 2017, 1:24 am   #58
BE Enthusiast
 
Joined: Sep 2007
Location: North Kessock, Ross-shire Scotland and Treignac France
Posts: 424
Scots in Treignac is a name known to allScots in Treignac is a name known to allScots in Treignac is a name known to allScots in Treignac is a name known to allScots in Treignac is a name known to allScots in Treignac is a name known to allScots in Treignac is a name known to allScots in Treignac is a name known to allScots in Treignac is a name known to allScots in Treignac is a name known to allScots in Treignac is a name known to all
Default Re: Right to live in France

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyrian View Post
It doesn't matter if you meet the french criteria.
The double taxation treaty is designed to operate when both countries cannot agree. Normally, the countries come to an agreement and tax residency is decided by mutual agreement. However, where the countries both feel that the individual belongs to them, then the tax treaty trumps (no relation) the national tax rules.
Brexit has no effect on this because the tax treaty is not an EU treaty.
What Brexit may effect is the right of the person to live in the other country.
HTH
I think this last sentence answers one of my nagging concerns;- What is the point/ advantage of applying for Irish citizenship at 1,000 euros a time.
Thanks
Scots in Treignac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Oct 30th 2017, 9:34 am   #59
Just Joined
 
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 23
Alianco is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: Right to live in France

Indeed, that was my concern. Having lived in France twice for 2 years at a time we came and went on our EU passports and kept our heads under the radar on our boat. No one ever questioned how long we had been there, not passport control or the douane who came on my boat to check it and us twice in the canals and once at sea. We both remained registered in UK for healthcare and saw the visits as extended holidays.
Much as I hope for a softer, more amicable and mutually beneficial brexit I still have a vision at the back of my mind of some branch of the French police knocking on my hull on the morning of March 29th 2019, assuming that we haven't bought a house yet, pointing at my red ensign (which I have to fly) and asking to see our EU passports or visas. We're not wealthy by any means, but the price of Irish citizenship and a passport seems to us a reasonable price for some peace of mind in my worst case scenario future.
Alianco is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Oct 30th 2017, 9:41 am   #60
Premium Member
 
BritInParis's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2012
Location: Not in Paris
Posts: 8,434
BritInParis has a reputation beyond reputeBritInParis has a reputation beyond reputeBritInParis has a reputation beyond reputeBritInParis has a reputation beyond reputeBritInParis has a reputation beyond reputeBritInParis has a reputation beyond reputeBritInParis has a reputation beyond reputeBritInParis has a reputation beyond reputeBritInParis has a reputation beyond reputeBritInParis has a reputation beyond reputeBritInParis has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Right to live in France

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scots in Treignac View Post
I think this last sentence answers one of my nagging concerns;- What is the point/ advantage of applying for Irish citizenship at 1,000 euros a time.
Thanks
More like €278.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alianco View Post
Indeed, that was my concern. Having lived in France twice for 2 years at a time we came and went on our EU passports and kept our heads under the radar on our boat. No one ever questioned how long we had been there, not passport control or the douane who came on my boat to check it and us twice in the canals and once at sea. We both remained registered in UK for healthcare and saw the visits as extended holidays.
Much as I hope for a softer, more amicable and mutually beneficial brexit I still have a vision at the back of my mind of some branch of the French police knocking on my hull on the morning of March 29th 2019, assuming that we haven't bought a house yet, pointing at my red ensign (which I have to fly) and asking to see our EU passports or visas. We're not wealthy by any means, but the price of Irish citizenship and a passport seems to us a reasonable price for some peace of mind in my worst case scenario future.
A very small price to pay in the grand scheme of things.
BritInParis is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   British Expats / Living & Moving Abroad / Europe / France


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT. The time now is 1:50 am.


Powered by vBulletin: ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 1999-2010 BritishExpats.com