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Old Oct 22nd 2017, 9:52 am   #16
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Default Re: Right to live in France

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Originally Posted by Helen1964 View Post
As far as your right to reside in France is concerned, Brexit is surely irrelevant as you will be an Irish - and therefore EU - national. And your wife, as the spouse of such a person, should have no problems either.
As far as health care is concerned, Brexit could potentially affect you. Right now, you would only have to take out private health insurance until your UK state pension kicks in, at which point you would become entitled to care on the same basis as French nationals. We cannot assume, however, that after the UK leaves the EU, being in receipt of a UK state pension will entitle you to medical treatment in EU states on the same basis as locals.
To be on the safe side, assume you’ll have to pay for private health insurance until you snuff it.
As an EU citizen, you can apply for health cover in France after 3 months permanent residence.

https://www.french-property.com/news...selle_maladie/

https://www.expatica.com/fr/healthca...enchHealthcare
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Old Oct 22nd 2017, 1:17 pm   #17
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Default Re: Right to live in France

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Originally Posted by cyrian View Post
As an EU citizen, you can apply for health cover in France after 3 months permanent residence.

https://www.french-property.com/news...selle_maladie/

https://www.expatica.com/fr/healthca...enchHealthcare
Excellent news. Sounds like they’re sorted.
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Old Oct 22nd 2017, 2:12 pm   #18
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Default Re: Right to live in France

That's all very encouraging, thanks. Now I just have to persuade the powers that be that we are permanently resident on a boat in the canals. We will try the various ports de pleasance along the way in case one of them will allow us to use it as a suitable address. The worst case scenario would be to rent somewhere, but I know that short lets are not really a French thing. We managed to rent a studio just for the winter of 2005, but only directly from the landladies, the agent refusing to let to us. A long term let would be a waste of money since we can live on the boat for free outside of the marinas.
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Old Oct 22nd 2017, 3:47 pm   #19
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Default Re: Right to live in France

I knew a couple who brought a narrow boat across the channel and over-wintered in Auxerre, sending their kids to the local school. I visited the boat and it was VERY narrow whereas the couple weren't. Auxerre had its coldest winter for years and the Yonne froze over!
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Old Oct 22nd 2017, 5:18 pm   #20
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Default Re: Right to live in France

Yes, I've never been a lover of narrow boats. We wintered in Port St Louis at the base of the Rhone in 2005 and it was ok. Our boat is a 36' sail boat and easily heated with a small convection heater.
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Old Oct 22nd 2017, 6:05 pm   #21
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Default Re: Right to live in France

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Originally Posted by Alianco View Post
Now I just have to persuade the powers that be that we are permanently resident on a boat in the canals. We will try the various ports de pleasance along the way in case one of them will allow us to use it as a suitable address. A long term let would be a waste of money since we can live on the boat for free outside of the marinas.
I think there may be a few contradictions in there. Being permanently resident on a boat is one thing, but I don't see how proving you're permanently resident on a boat is going to prove that you're permanently resident in France unless you have a long term berth somewhere. Boats can easily to go Germany, Spain, wherever. If living permanently on a boat was accepted as proof of resident you could prove residence in loads of countries at the same time.

Found this, which isn't specifically your case as it relates to the issue of cartes d'identité but I imagine that the principle would be the same:

https://www.gisti.org/IMG/pdf/norintd0000001c.pdf
Para 30
- Pour les personnes résidant sur des bateaux de plaisance, il convient de considérer le
caractère durable de l'amarrage du bateau dans le même lieu ; en effet, en raison de son
caractère intrinsèquement mobile, un bateau ne peut être considéré comme étant un
domicile car celui-ci doit présenter un caractère de stabilité et de fixité, en revanche, rien
ne s'oppose ce qu'il soit considéré comme résidence.
Lorsque le bateau est amarré depuis au moins trois mois dans le même lieu, les personnes
concernées peuvent obtenir une carte nationale d'identité auprès de la préfecture ou de la
sous-préfecture territorialement compétente. A la rubrique « domicile » sera mentionné le
nom du bateau suivi de l'indication de son emplacement. Le demandeur devra produire
0 une attestation établie par la capitainerie du port, d'une propriété d'emplacement ou
d'une location permanente
0 une quittance d'assurance pour le bateau
0 un titre de propriété ou un contrat de location en cours de validité du bateau
Lorsque le demandeur ne peut faire état d'un stationnement durable de son bateau en un
même lieu, il y a lieu de considérer que sa situation relève de l'application de la loi n° 69.3
du 3 janvier 1969 citée ci-dessous

So in essence, without a permanent mooring you would be considered an sdf, ie of no fixed abode (logical, since your abode is not fixed!) which I doubt would be accepted for the purposes of healthcare, droit au séjour etc. That being the case, paying for three month mooring might seem less of a waste of a money if it buys you into the system...
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Old Oct 22nd 2017, 6:38 pm   #22
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Default Re: Right to live in France

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear. By short term let I was referring to an apartment. As I say, I am aware that short term tenancies are uncommon in France. We will be stopping for up to 6 months in the winter in a Marina somewhere, possibly Moissac so that might allow us to fulfil the requirements.
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Old Oct 25th 2017, 12:16 am   #23
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Default Re: Right to live in France

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Originally Posted by cyrian View Post
As an EU citizen, you can apply for health cover in France after 3 months permanent residence.

https://www.french-property.com/news...selle_maladie/

https://www.expatica.com/fr/healthca...enchHealthcare
I am a bit anxious after looking at the first link, and found a piece that might exclude many people like me.
:-
This is because the new law specifically excludes from PUMA those in receipt of a foreign pension who obtain their health insurance cover from their own home country.
Article 160-6 of the Code de la sécurité sociale states that amongst those excluded are:
"Les personnes titulaires d'une pension étrangère qui ne bénéficient pas par ailleurs d'un avantage viager d'un régime obligatoire de sécurité sociale français lorsque, en application d'un règlement européen ou d'un accord international, la prise en charge de leurs frais de santé ainsi que de ceux des membres de leur famille qui résident avec elles relève du régime étranger qui sert la pension."
This clause is merely a legal technicality, in order that S1 households do not pay a charge to the French health system. They are also exempt from social charges on their pension.


Under the 2014 intervention by the EU, I would need to find my health cover for the first 3 months which is OK for now, but for how much longer?
And then I would need to comit to living in France for a total of 183 days per year (although that bit might be contrary to the 2014 intervention.


What I still can't get my head round is the EU healthcare status of a Brit with Irish nationality who has always paid into the UK health system (i.e. not the Irish system)


It was often pointed out on this forum that a British Passport was not enough to gain access to French healthcare, it was the contributions that made the difference.
However it could be that the contributions were needed to obtain an E11 and also that the 2014 intervention has changed the way France operates its rules.
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Old Oct 25th 2017, 7:37 am   #24
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Default Re: Right to live in France

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Originally Posted by Scots in Treignac View Post
Under the 2014 intervention by the EU, I would need to find my health cover for the first 3 months which is OK for now, but for how much longer?
I don't know what you mean - 3 months will always be 3 months...
The bit you should have highlighted is "la prise en charge de leurs frais de santé". It's not saying that you can't join PUMA as a Brit with an S1. What it's saying is that France won't be responsible for the costs. They will still treat you under PUMA, but the UK will foot the bill. That's the whole point of the S1, to enable the French to pass on to the UK all the costs of the people named on it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scots in Treignac View Post
And then I would need to comit to living in France for a total of 183 days per year
Well if you're not intending to LIVE in France, ie spend most of your time here, why are you even interested in French healthcare? If you don't live in France most of the year then unless you're going to be travelling, then you'll be living in another country for most of the year, and except in extraordinary circumstances that's the country where you'll be classed as resident and that will be responsible for your healthcare.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scots in Treignac View Post
What I still can't get my head round is the EU healthcare status of a Brit with Irish nationality who has always paid into the UK health system (i.e. not the Irish system)
Generally speaking, a person who has always paid into the UK NHS is covered by the UK, regardless of what passport(s) that person holds.

You're looking for complications that aren't there. It's really not that complicated. You work and/or contribute to the social security system of State A, and State A gives you entitlements in return, regardless of whether your passport was issued by State A, B, C or whatever. This is in line with EU regulations, which totally supports the right of countries to prevent people moving to live there and becoming a burden on the state. Freedom of movement is primarily about workers, who are not a burden on the state or its taxpayers, they are taxpayers themselves. It has been extended to pensioners covered by their home country and therefore not a burden on the state or its taxpayers, and inactifs with sufficient resources to support themselves and therefore ditto. Hence people pointing out that 'a British Passport is not enough to gain access to French healthcare, it was the contributions that made the difference' - or the SI issued by the UK.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scots in Treignac View Post
However it could be that the contributions were needed to obtain an E11 and also that the 2014 intervention has changed the way France operates its rules.
I'm not sure what EHICs have to do with this particular question, and France introduced PUMA in 2016 and the rules haven't changed since then.

Hope this helps.
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Old Oct 25th 2017, 9:28 am   #25
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Default Re: Right to live in France

Thanks for all the thought and research that have gone into these replies. I can't pretend to fully understand the suggestions and counter suggestions, but I wonder if one of the points that Scots in Treignac makes is particularly relevant to me. I have paid into the NHS in UK and not into Ireland's health system. Assuming the worst case scenario after brexit and me trying to access the French health system through my new Irish citizenship, EuroTrash's point of France looking for remuneration suddenly sounds problematic. Would they expect money from the NHS even if there is no more reciprocal agreement or Ireland where I have never contributed? The extreme toxicity of the arguments within our own government and those between us and the EU worry me. I doubt any European country would deliberately seek revenge on a UK citizen by making things harder then necessary for them (I suppose it's possible at some local level after all this acrimony), but they would have every right to impose strict rules and follow them to the letter.
I hope I have made an obvious mistake in my rather negative assessment and that some kind soul will gently point it out to me. Looking forward to being proved wrong and reassured.
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Old Oct 25th 2017, 10:10 am   #26
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Default Re: Right to live in France

One point of order: you don't pay into the NHS. It's funded from general taxation and is residence-based. This is in contrast to the French system which is contribution-based.

Worst case scenario is that you would need to purchase private medical insurance.
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Old Oct 25th 2017, 11:11 am   #27
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Default Re: Right to live in France

Yes, that's what I was thinking. As to that, can anyone give me an idea of prescriptions and charges in France. Assuming we would get medical insurance that doesn't include a pre-existing condition that will need prescription drugs indefinitely, we would still need a prescription to buy the drugs legally. There is the non-prescription, internet route, but that is probably too great a gamble. Do you think we could simply pay for a 25 euro doctor's visit to get the prescription once every three months and pay for the drugs ourselves?
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Old Oct 25th 2017, 11:37 am   #28
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Default Re: Right to live in France

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One point of order: you don't pay into the NHS. It's funded from general taxation and is residence-based. This is in contrast to the French system which is contribution-based.
Ahem - what are NICs, then?
If you're working you have NICs (employer and employee) deducted from your salary, separate from tax. If you're self employed you pay NICs monthly or quarterly. If you're on benefits then depending on the benefit, the goverment makes contributions for you. You need to have contributed, or have contributions made on your behalf, for 35 years min to qualify for a full UK pension. Your National Insurance record needs to be in order for you to received NHS funded treatment. Though I don't know if the NHS actually has any mechanism for checking at point of delivery.
That's why immigrants who have been "resident" but not working and not paying NICs, had a spat with Ms May recently when there were questions over the legality of their residence. The system is not transparent.

Last edited by EuroTrash; Oct 25th 2017 at 11:45 am.
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Old Oct 25th 2017, 11:42 am   #29
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Default Re: Right to live in France

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Originally Posted by Alianco View Post
EuroTrash's point of France looking for remuneration suddenly sounds problematic.
Not at all. Have you read how PUMA works? If you don't work in France and don't have an S1, you simply pay your own contributions as an inactif - you can apply to join on the basis of legal residence, and you'll pay cotisations annually based on your income as declared on your tax return. Naturally you don't pay full social security contributions as paid by workers, you only pay the healthcare component and not all the rest such as sick pay contributions, national training contributions, chômage if applicable etc. I think at present you pay around 8% of household income above approx 9,5K. But it's all clearly explained online.

Last edited by EuroTrash; Oct 25th 2017 at 12:09 pm.
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Old Oct 25th 2017, 12:03 pm   #30
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Default Re: Right to live in France

@BritinParis - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation...e_contribution
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