Right to live in France
 

Hi Everyone,
This is the first of a number of questions I hope I can get some advice on. My wife and I are British passport holders and I have been able to register my birth in Ireland so I will also have an EU passport. We plan to come and live in France early next year and will be retired with a smallish, but reasonable enough income from letting. My question is, assuming the very worst and UK crashes out of the EU next year, where does my wife stand as married to a non-French EU passport holder? Of course, none of us can guess what will happen about Brexit, but assuming nothing changes either for better or worse concerning non-EU citizens married to EU passport holders, can anyone suggest what we might expect?
Thanks

Re: Right to live in France
 

Hi and welcome to the forum from a fellow Héraultaise!
No one knows how Brexit will turn out.
Something more urgent to consider is your healthcare insurance. If you're "inactive" pre-retirees, you'll have to take out private insurance until you receive a UK State Pension or qualify for residence status, and get into the French Social Security System.
Bear in mind that you must declare your letting (and any other world-wide) income to the French Tax Office.
You'd have to look into the question of justifying domicile for the various Authorities - I've no idea how they deal with people living in a boat (as per your other thread). Some one in the know may come along to advise...
Hope this is of some help!:)

Re: Right to live in France
 

Hi dmu,
Thanks for the reply. Yes I'm aware of the need for medical insurance and the problems of whether living on a boat would count as being resident. They were going to be some of my later questions. I have certainly managed in the past (2 years in the canals and 2 years sailing in the med) to use marina addresses for post, deliveries and even a wifi contract. I agree no one knows what will happen after Brexit. I was really wondering what the situation is now for an Eu passport owning Brit with a non Eu passport owning wife to give me some idea of what possibly to expect. Probably too hypothetical a question.

Re: Right to live in France
 

That's as may be, but you mentioned living on a canal - would there be a Capitainerie to register your presence and receive mail? The Social Security and Tax Office will need some sort of Rental Contract or other official document when you register with them.
And as you say, your question is too hypothetical!;)

Re: Right to live in France
 

Hi
There was a life before the EU.
Before the EU, brits could visit and even stay in France without a visa.
OK it wasn't seamless and a right as with EU citizenship but it still happened.
A few years ago, an American (non-EU citizen) I knew retired to France.
He even managed to get a carte vitale - oh and he could only manage a few words of French.
If you have an EU passport then you should be covered under EU rules for healthcare. Your wife should also be covered as the spouse of an EU citizen.
HTH

Re: Right to live in France
 

And I know an American citizen who gave up on her idea of retiring in Spain because it was to expensive. In other words: before the EU only richer people could retire in Spain after the EU only richer Brits will be able to retire in the EU. Freedom of movement is a gift to normal people who have no special skills or a big bank account. Brexit will end that...it will hit the little ones not the elite who always got their visas and will continue to get their visas. Of course you could also try to qualify as a good since this a world that Brexiteers love: freedom of movement for goods but not people. So yes things will change. Best thing as a British is to look at immigration rules for Americans

That said because OP is an EU citizen he will still enjoy freedom of movement and have all the rights that will come with the EU.

Re: Right to live in France
 

Most of your first paragraph is hypothetical as we have NO idea of what will happen after brexit, your scenario could be right, or it could be completely wrong, I tend to think your scenario will be completely wrong.

Re: Right to live in France
 

I actually think there's a lot of truth in that. However I don't necessarily see it as a bad thing. Before Brexit, it was quite a big deal for Brits to move to mainland Europe, they had to plan carefully and have good reasons for wanting to make the move. Brexit made it possible to move on a whim, for the cheap wine and the sunshine and the perception of cheap property. I'm not sure all the people who moved for those reasons have enjoyed life here as much as they thought they would, sometimes it gets a bit spoilt by all those funny foreign rules and people not speaking English.

Re: Right to live in France
 

I would suspect that different countries will apply different rules, I really can't imagine Spain making it more difficult for Brits to move there with the huge number of half built or empty houses and apartments on the coast, they will certainly need to keep them coming.

Re: Right to live in France
 

Hi and thanks for all the replies and advice,
Since we are coming to France anyway and have lived in France for 4 years already (albeit on a boat), the most relevant advice seems to me to be 'There was life before the EU'. I was just trying to see what forward planning I could do, but my question was too hypothetical to be of much use. We will come and it will work out somehow I have no doubt. I speak enough French to get by, my wife less so at the moment, but we are both looking forward to improving and are certainly not planning on living too deeply in an English speaking community. We live relatively cheaply and are happy with our finances. We'll sort out medical insurance (any advice on who to go with would be welcome) and see what life has to offer in our next adventure.

Re: Right to live in France
 

If you are now an Irish citizen then Brexit is irrelevant to you as you will continue to have freedom of movement rights throughout the EU so long as Ireland remains a member of the EU. Your wife, regardless of her passport, will also enjoy those rights as your spouse.

Re: Right to live in France
 

They make it difficult for Americans and they will make it difficult for Brits. Seriously you must get over this " the world needs us. We can leave the EU but for us Brits nothing will change because Europeans need us". You voted out your down with the disadvantage of EU membership and you are down with the advantages. You won't have your cake and eat it. Please get over yourself. Nobody needs you to come and make housing expensive, to clog European roads and beaches. There more than enough Europeans who will retire in Spain. Rich Brits may come but the little ones with not much money please stay away.

Re: Right to live in France
 

:goodpost: This! And both sentences. :nod:

All the other advice, commentary, and opinions in this thread are just noise.
I think this is very true - just look how many people "retire to Spain" but really seem to treat it as an extended holiday, and then when they get older, ill, and infirm, sell up and head back to Blighty.

Re: Right to live in France
 

Good post indeed. Always dangerous to only hear what you want to believe, but the second sentence is what I wanted to hear.
Cheers

Re: Right to live in France
 

As far as your right to reside in France is concerned, Brexit is surely irrelevant as you will be an Irish - and therefore EU - national. And your wife, as the spouse of such a person, should have no problems either.
As far as health care is concerned, Brexit could potentially affect you. Right now, you would only have to take out private health insurance until your UK state pension kicks in, at which point you would become entitled to care on the same basis as French nationals. We cannot assume, however, that after the UK leaves the EU, being in receipt of a UK state pension will entitle you to medical treatment in EU states on the same basis as locals.
To be on the safe side, assume you’ll have to pay for private health insurance until you snuff it.

Re: Right to live in France
 

As an EU citizen, you can apply for health cover in France after 3 months permanent residence.

https://www.french-property.com/news...selle_maladie/

https://www.expatica.com/fr/healthca...enchHealthcare

Re: Right to live in France
 

Excellent news. Sounds like they’re sorted.

Re: Right to live in France
 

That's all very encouraging, thanks. Now I just have to persuade the powers that be that we are permanently resident on a boat in the canals. We will try the various ports de pleasance along the way in case one of them will allow us to use it as a suitable address. The worst case scenario would be to rent somewhere, but I know that short lets are not really a French thing. We managed to rent a studio just for the winter of 2005, but only directly from the landladies, the agent refusing to let to us. A long term let would be a waste of money since we can live on the boat for free outside of the marinas.

Re: Right to live in France
 

I knew a couple who brought a narrow boat across the channel and over-wintered in Auxerre, sending their kids to the local school. I visited the boat and it was VERY narrow whereas the couple weren't. Auxerre had its coldest winter for years and the Yonne froze over!

Re: Right to live in France
 

Yes, I've never been a lover of narrow boats. We wintered in Port St Louis at the base of the Rhone in 2005 and it was ok. Our boat is a 36' sail boat and easily heated with a small convection heater.

Re: Right to live in France
 

I think there may be a few contradictions in there. Being permanently resident on a boat is one thing, but I don't see how proving you're permanently resident on a boat is going to prove that you're permanently resident in France unless you have a long term berth somewhere. Boats can easily to go Germany, Spain, wherever. If living permanently on a boat was accepted as proof of resident you could prove residence in loads of countries at the same time.

Found this, which isn't specifically your case as it relates to the issue of cartes d'identité but I imagine that the principle would be the same:

https://www.gisti.org/IMG/pdf/norintd0000001c.pdf
Para 30
- Pour les personnes résidant sur des bateaux de plaisance, il convient de considérer le
caractère durable de l'amarrage du bateau dans le même lieu ; en effet, en raison de son
caractère intrinsèquement mobile, un bateau ne peut être considéré comme étant un
domicile car celui-ci doit présenter un caractère de stabilité et de fixité, en revanche, rien
ne s'oppose � ce qu'il soit considéré comme résidence.
Lorsque le bateau est amarré depuis au moins trois mois dans le même lieu, les personnes
concernées peuvent obtenir une carte nationale d'identité auprès de la préfecture ou de la
sous-préfecture territorialement compétente. A la rubrique « domicile » sera mentionné le
nom du bateau suivi de l'indication de son emplacement. Le demandeur devra produire
0 une attestation établie par la capitainerie du port, d'une propriété d'emplacement ou
d'une location permanente
0 une quittance d'assurance pour le bateau
0 un titre de propriété ou un contrat de location en cours de validité du bateau
Lorsque le demandeur ne peut faire état d'un stationnement durable de son bateau en un
même lieu, il y a lieu de considérer que sa situation relève de l'application de la loi n° 69.3
du 3 janvier 1969 citée ci-dessous

So in essence, without a permanent mooring you would be considered an sdf, ie of no fixed abode (logical, since your abode is not fixed!) which I doubt would be accepted for the purposes of healthcare, droit au séjour etc. That being the case, paying for three month mooring might seem less of a waste of a money if it buys you into the system...

Re: Right to live in France
 

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear. By short term let I was referring to an apartment. As I say, I am aware that short term tenancies are uncommon in France. We will be stopping for up to 6 months in the winter in a Marina somewhere, possibly Moissac so that might allow us to fulfil the requirements.

Re: Right to live in France
 

I am a bit anxious after looking at the first link, and found a piece that might exclude many people like me.
:-
This is because the new law specifically excludes from PUMA those in receipt of a foreign pension who obtain their health insurance cover from their own home country.
Article 160-6 of the Code de la sécurité sociale states that amongst those excluded are:
"Les personnes titulaires d'une pension étrangère qui ne bénéficient pas par ailleurs d'un avantage viager d'un régime obligatoire de sécurité sociale français lorsque, en application d'un règlement européen ou d'un accord international, la prise en charge de leurs frais de santé ainsi que de ceux des membres de leur famille qui résident avec elles relève du régime étranger qui sert la pension."
This clause is merely a legal technicality, in order that S1 households do not pay a charge to the French health system. They are also exempt from social charges on their pension.


Under the 2014 intervention by the EU, I would need to find my health cover for the first 3 months which is OK for now, but for how much longer?
And then I would need to comit to living in France for a total of 183 days per year (although that bit might be contrary to the 2014 intervention.


What I still can't get my head round is the EU healthcare status of a Brit with Irish nationality who has always paid into the UK health system (i.e. not the Irish system)


It was often pointed out on this forum that a British Passport was not enough to gain access to French healthcare, it was the contributions that made the difference.
However it could be that the contributions were needed to obtain an E11 and also that the 2014 intervention has changed the way France operates its rules.

Re: Right to live in France
 

I don't know what you mean - 3 months will always be 3 months...
The bit you should have highlighted is "la prise en charge de leurs frais de santé". It's not saying that you can't join PUMA as a Brit with an S1. What it's saying is that France won't be responsible for the costs. They will still treat you under PUMA, but the UK will foot the bill. That's the whole point of the S1, to enable the French to pass on to the UK all the costs of the people named on it.
Well if you're not intending to LIVE in France, ie spend most of your time here, why are you even interested in French healthcare? If you don't live in France most of the year then unless you're going to be travelling, then you'll be living in another country for most of the year, and except in extraordinary circumstances that's the country where you'll be classed as resident and that will be responsible for your healthcare.

Generally speaking, a person who has always paid into the UK NHS is covered by the UK, regardless of what passport(s) that person holds.

You're looking for complications that aren't there. It's really not that complicated. You work and/or contribute to the social security system of State A, and State A gives you entitlements in return, regardless of whether your passport was issued by State A, B, C or whatever. This is in line with EU regulations, which totally supports the right of countries to prevent people moving to live there and becoming a burden on the state. Freedom of movement is primarily about workers, who are not a burden on the state or its taxpayers, they are taxpayers themselves. It has been extended to pensioners covered by their home country and therefore not a burden on the state or its taxpayers, and inactifs with sufficient resources to support themselves and therefore ditto. Hence people pointing out that 'a British Passport is not enough to gain access to French healthcare, it was the contributions that made the difference' - or the SI issued by the UK.

I'm not sure what EHICs have to do with this particular question, and France introduced PUMA in 2016 and the rules haven't changed since then.

Hope this helps.

Re: Right to live in France
 

Thanks for all the thought and research that have gone into these replies. I can't pretend to fully understand the suggestions and counter suggestions, but I wonder if one of the points that Scots in Treignac makes is particularly relevant to me. I have paid into the NHS in UK and not into Ireland's health system. Assuming the worst case scenario after brexit and me trying to access the French health system through my new Irish citizenship, EuroTrash's point of France looking for remuneration suddenly sounds problematic. Would they expect money from the NHS even if there is no more reciprocal agreement or Ireland where I have never contributed? The extreme toxicity of the arguments within our own government and those between us and the EU worry me. I doubt any European country would deliberately seek revenge on a UK citizen by making things harder then necessary for them (I suppose it's possible at some local level after all this acrimony), but they would have every right to impose strict rules and follow them to the letter.
I hope I have made an obvious mistake in my rather negative assessment and that some kind soul will gently point it out to me. Looking forward to being proved wrong and reassured.

Re: Right to live in France
 

One point of order: you don't pay into the NHS. It's funded from general taxation and is residence-based. This is in contrast to the French system which is contribution-based.

Worst case scenario is that you would need to purchase private medical insurance.

Re: Right to live in France
 

Yes, that's what I was thinking. As to that, can anyone give me an idea of prescriptions and charges in France. Assuming we would get medical insurance that doesn't include a pre-existing condition that will need prescription drugs indefinitely, we would still need a prescription to buy the drugs legally. There is the non-prescription, internet route, but that is probably too great a gamble. Do you think we could simply pay for a 25 euro doctor's visit to get the prescription once every three months and pay for the drugs ourselves?

Re: Right to live in France
 

Ahem - what are NICs, then?
If you're working you have NICs (employer and employee) deducted from your salary, separate from tax. If you're self employed you pay NICs monthly or quarterly. If you're on benefits then depending on the benefit, the goverment makes contributions for you. You need to have contributed, or have contributions made on your behalf, for 35 years min to qualify for a full UK pension. Your National Insurance record needs to be in order for you to received NHS funded treatment. Though I don't know if the NHS actually has any mechanism for checking at point of delivery.
That's why immigrants who have been "resident" but not working and not paying NICs, had a spat with Ms May recently when there were questions over the legality of their residence. The system is not transparent.

Re: Right to live in France
 

Not at all. Have you read how PUMA works? If you don't work in France and don't have an S1, you simply pay your own contributions as an inactif - you can apply to join on the basis of legal residence, and you'll pay cotisations annually based on your income as declared on your tax return. Naturally you don't pay full social security contributions as paid by workers, you only pay the healthcare component and not all the rest such as sick pay contributions, national training contributions, chômage if applicable etc. I think at present you pay around 8% of household income above approx 9,5K. But it's all clearly explained online.

Re: Right to live in France
 

@BritinParis - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation...e_contribution

Re: Right to live in France
 

National Insurance contributions are linked to your State Pension and certain welfare benefits. The presence of NICs, or lack thereof, has no influence on a person's ability to access NHS services free of charge. There is no connection between the two as you can see from the Wikipedia article you linked to.

Re: Right to live in France
 

Thinking about it, you're absolutely right :lol: Although NICs do fund the NHS.
My bad :thumbup:

Re: Right to live in France
 

No they don't, that is a commonly repeated myth.

Per Select Committee on Social Security Fifth Report (2010) - The relationship between tax and National Insurance:

"It [National Insurance] was initially a contributory system of insurance against illness and unemployment, and later also provided retirement pensions and other benefits. ....

Re: Right to live in France
 

https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/project...how-nhs-funded

Source: OHE guide to UK health and health care statistics (2013), Department of Health annual report and accounts 2015/16

The NHS is funded mainly from general taxation and National Insurance contributions. In 2001, an increase in National Insurance rates intended to boost NHS funding increased the proportion paid for by National Insurance, although general taxation still accounts for around 80 per cent of NHS funding.

Shall we agree on "go towards funding the NHS"?

Re: Right to live in France
 

Well in truth it's all money that goes into the government pot, and politicians have an irritating habit of saying "we're increasing this tax to pay for that", when taxes are not ear-marked like that. They aren't today, and they never have been, except in very rare instsnces.

Re: Right to live in France
 

Which is a complete contrast to the French system here your payslip has a breakdown of every agency or association your "Cotisations" go to. Im pretty sure that the first person that makes sense of a French payslip will get a prize.

Re: Right to live in France
 

At the moment, as EU citizens, British retirees resident living in France need to be in receipt of their UK state pension in order to be a part of the French Healthcare system.
A UK state pension requires some NIC contributions to have been made,


I delayed claiming my state pension by 3 years as there was no way we could live in France for more than six moths as we were looking after MIL at our house in Scotland.


As pointed out in this forum, no-ne knows what will remain or change or disappear after Brexit and I have yet to work out the advantages of obtaining a passport of another EU country by one of the various means available.

Re: Right to live in France
 

@Scots: You missed at bit out.
"At the moment, as EU citizens, British retirees resident living in France need to be in receipt of their UK state pension in order to be a part of the French Healthcare system by virtue of holding a UK-issued S1".

British/Irish/any other nationality retirees living in France but not holding an S1, can join the French Healthcare system after 3 months' legal residence on the basis of residence, and pay an annual contribution.

There are lots and lots of British early retirees (inactifs) living in France, not claiming a UK pension and not issued with an S1, but covered by PUMA, at minimal expense to themselves.

Re: Right to live in France
 

Indeed, I am early retiree and pay for National Healthcare. Bit more expensive than minimal expense though ;)

Re: Right to live in France
 

Oops sorry Annetje, have I been tactless :o
You might find comfort in knowing it's probably more expensive for workers - if I tell you that on a very modest income I've paid over 6k into the French social security system already this year and there's still one quarter to go, does that make you feel better :eek:
So it's all relative.


PS Actually I just realised I'm lying - no more payments this year, the next is in January so I have in fact made my 4 payments for the year. Still and all.