bazzer70

I have read rather a lot of comments on this site which make me sense the writers have some regrets about taking the plunge of moving to France - bureaucracy being the primary source of discontent!
If possible is it reasonable to legally stay in France for more than 183 days in the year WITHOUT becoming a taxpayer/resident? I would sell my London home and buy a small bolt hole in UK so to remain a UK resident. I would only return to UK to occasionally visit family or (hopefully not) for anything majorly medical. Are there loopholes? I assume the 183 days is cumulative and not at a time. Would anyone know or care?
Initially I’d rent but if I decided I loved my choice I would maybe buy a property.
Thanks in anticipation once more
Baz

dmu

Regretful comments on the France forum? We certainly warn potential expats what to expect from the Authorities, and those who do moan upon arrival obviously didn't come to BE beforehand for advice! Fore-warned is fore-armed....
As for renting in France without being a Tax-Resident, a search didn't come up with anything, and I suspect it would be impossible. Some one more in the know (ET?) will come along to advise, but I believe rented property in France is considered as your résidence principale (and your UK bolt-hole a residence secondaire). To avoid the Residency issue, a 3-month rental of a furnished gîte would be possible (apparently 6 months maximum on the Côte d'Azur), and you'd be free to move to others, to check on various locations....

EuroTrash

At the risk of stating the obvious, owning property in the UK doesn't make you resident if you don't reside in said property.

I'm not sure what you mean by "are there loopholes" - loopholes in what? What you're suggesting is not legal, that's not to say it is illegal, simply that it's irregular and as such you risk ending up with no entitlements anywhere. For instance you wouldn't be entitled to NHS healthcare because you don't live in the UK and you wouldn't be entitled to healthcare from France because you haven't applied and proved your entitlement and paid your contributions. The rules that you're so keen on sidestepping, have actually been designed and put in place to ensure that EU citizens don't end up with no rights and entitlements when they move country. Following on from that, I would say that the main regrets come from people who either make the move unprepared in total ignorance of the rules, and/or who decide to try to duck and dive and be clever. We've all met them - driving round in their UK reg car on SORN, EHIC card in their wallet, and all the rest. When they come unstuck, which usually they do sooner or later, then of course it's all France's fault.
Bureaucracy isn't a problem if you're in a regular situation and you approach it seriously and provide the documents they need, all you need is a little patience. Basically it's about rights and responsibilities - there are certain things that France expects residents to do, and in return, it grants them certain rights and benefits (eg reduced property taxes, access to healthcare and other entitlements). If they choose not to do those things they can go whistle for their rights, it's no skin off France's nose.

dmu

Couldn't have put it better!
We've indicated in the various threads most of the issues that Bazzer and partner will be facing if they decide on France. Up to them to accept France's quirks and follow the rules, or not....

Pondlife

I didn't have a problem renting in Paris for 9 months. Didn't need a car so that wasn't an issue, I was still officially resident of the UK as that is where my home was, got my money paid into a UK bank account from the company (based in Paris), their HR / personnel dept dealt with the bureaucracy side of things for me as they have done in every other part of the world I have worked. France has tax reciprocity so HMRC are used to dealing with global wages - just get an accountant to do that bit for you.
Don't get too hung up on living abroad - it's not as scary as some people make it out to be.

dmu

Hi, going from your earlier threads, you have a special "global status" and your organisation dealt with everything (including finding your 9-month rental?). The OP has several issues to deal with on his own....
"Horror stories" and "scary" are only used by expats who didn't do enough research before arrival and/or whose language skills weren't sufficient to cope. Bureaucracy is a pain in the neck, but as ET says, you just need patience....

bazzer70

Thanks Eurotrash, dmu and also Pondlife - all reassuring - I was just worried that obstacles encountered were put there to deter us from moving to France - but from what you say they are there for protection rather - thanks again! I didn't want to shell out exorbitant fees to some insurance company (health) if this wasn't necessary - or some letting agent either for that matter.
Moving, or the thought of it, is scary - and a lot of people do make it out to be so - so thanks Pondlife for your final thought too!

cyrian

I agree with the above comments.
You cannot choose where you are tax resident.
The rules choose that for you.
France has its rules and the UK has its rules and if the two cannot agree then there is a tax treaty to arbitrate.
If you do not follow the rules i.e. if you do not complete the obligatory annual tax return then you will be fined if you are caught.
If you move to France with the intention of living there then you are tax resident from day 1 - not after 183 days.
Yes we have seen people who think that moving to France is like being in the Home Counties but with more sun and nice wine and it just isn't like that.
France is totally different with different rules and different customs.
Understanding that and being prepared and as a former teacher - doing your homework is essential.

EuroTrash

Honestly, there is nothing scary about moving as long as you do it sensibly.

Doing it sensibly means taking on board the fact that moving to different country isn't the same as moving to a different part of the UK, because it involves coming out of one set of laws, social security arrangements, culture etc, and going into another. If you're not prepared to do that and you can't bear to let go of the safety blanket of the NHS etc, then don't move, simples. You have to decide what's most important - don't catch TM's cake and eat it syndrome, it doesn't work like that.

Exercising your EU rights is nowhere near as scary as immigrating to a third country because the EU system has been carefully designed to remove obstacles and make moving easy, it's what freedom of movement is all about. Apparently that's why certain UK politicians want to knock it on the head and bring the obstacles back. However, there are conditions attached, to protect the states as well as the citizens, and specifically to protect states from benefits tourism and social dumping (this is the bit those politicians don't seem to have got because the UK failed to apply those conditions properly). France for instance has built those conditions into national law so you have to respect them and exercise your rights correctly. Otherwise there is a risk you'll find yourself between a rock and a hard place, it's what happens when you go outside the law. France tends to be forgiving up to a point but there's a limit to how much abuse it will tolerate. It's not nearly as socialist as it used to be but it's still quite big on fairness and solidarity, and it has limited sympathy for those who come here for a free ride at the expense of its taxpayers.

There's no need for anything to be unknown and scary because all the information you need is in the public domain and easily findable. So if you approach it responsibly you'll know before you make the move exactly how things work and what to expect, and you'll usually find someone on the forum who has been through the process recently (because rules do change) and can report back. However if people say France treats Brits unfairly because they were refused this that or the other right or benefit, but they don't say why they were refused, take it with a pinch of salt because in 99% of cases you can be sure it wasn't France being unfair, it was them not respecting their side of the bargain, either because they hadn't bothered to find out beforehand what the conditions are or because they didn't realise that France, unlike the UK, does actually take the trouble to check these things.

Pondlife

Yes you are right DMU - they did find me the rental property - so yes sorry , comparing apples and oranges

Lurcher21

If you are looking for a rental property, then yes, if you go through an agency you are likely to encounter problems with all the paperwork they ask for. Your best bet would be to look for private owners renting out a property themselves. Personally I prefer to meet a prospective tenant myself. Much easier face to face.

petitefrancaise

brilliant!
From someone who has moved to France and then to USA.

Lurcher21

Let's not forget the fact also that Brits and many other nationalities have lived in France, owned properties, worked and been protected by the excellent healthcare here, before the EU even existed.

dmu

I had a Carte de Séjour when I arrived, before the UK was in the Common Market. The worst part of the procedure was the medical, where I had to give a blood sample, for the first time in my life, and the nurse wasn't very tender. Anyway, I survived the experience and am still here, despite all the changes since then, but meeting my future French OH was the deciding factor...

petitefrancaise

You have no idea. None.
The time you are talking about was a lifetime ago and since 1972 the world has changed. British people will no longer have access to the EU to come and go as they wish. British people will probably have to apply for different types of work permits, having medicals and proving their right to a particular permit.

One of the biggest reasons people gave for voting for Brexit was to "take back control of our borders:. FFS did you not realise it would go both ways??????

Take a look at the USA immigration part of this forum, or the Canadian, NZ and Australian one..... and realise that this is what Brits may have to go through.