Go Back   British Expats / Living & Moving Abroad / Europe / France

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old Jan 16th 2017, 12:38 pm   #16
Forum Regular
 
Joined: Mar 2009
Location: Bouche du Rhone (13)
Posts: 201
south_bound is just really nicesouth_bound is just really nicesouth_bound is just really nicesouth_bound is just really nicesouth_bound is just really nicesouth_bound is just really nicesouth_bound is just really nicesouth_bound is just really nice
Default Re: Process to become Self Employed in France

"Under certain circumstances, it may be possible to agree with the French tax authority that the working spouse is not tax resident in France. In this case, income earned in the UK would not be declarable in France and the French resident ‘household’ for French tax purposes would consist solely of the non-working spouse and any children. However, the French tax office would expect the French resident non-working spouse to declare as income any ‘allowance’ paid to him or her by the UK resident spouse." taken from https://www.frenchentree.com/living-...ork-in-the-uk/. OK, not an official french government source but a starting point for researching it more fully...

I know an ex-colleague who lives in France with his family but is employed in the UK and travels there weekly. As I understand it, if he spends more than 75% of his working time abroad then neither he nor his employer pays social security in France. He declares his tax-paid UK income for the purposes of calculating his household marginal income tax rate and obviously pays tax and s/s on any savings and investment income. Wife and kids are French and were already established in France before this arrangement started. Just saying there are ways of dealing with this, but it is probably only worth doing if you earn an above average salary.
south_bound is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jan 16th 2017, 1:38 pm   #17
Hostage Negotiator
Premium Member
 
InVinoVeritas's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 5,135
InVinoVeritas has a reputation beyond reputeInVinoVeritas has a reputation beyond reputeInVinoVeritas has a reputation beyond reputeInVinoVeritas has a reputation beyond reputeInVinoVeritas has a reputation beyond reputeInVinoVeritas has a reputation beyond reputeInVinoVeritas has a reputation beyond reputeInVinoVeritas has a reputation beyond reputeInVinoVeritas has a reputation beyond reputeInVinoVeritas has a reputation beyond reputeInVinoVeritas has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Process to become Self Employed in France

Quote:
Originally Posted by south_bound View Post
"Under certain circumstances, it may be possible to agree with the French tax authority that the working spouse is not tax resident in France. In this case, income earned in the UK would not be declarable in France and the French resident ‘household’ for French tax purposes would consist solely of the non-working spouse and any children. However, the French tax office would expect the French resident non-working spouse to declare as income any ‘allowance’ paid to him or her by the UK resident spouse." taken from https://www.frenchentree.com/living-...ork-in-the-uk/. OK, not an official french government source but a starting point for researching it more fully...

I know an ex-colleague who lives in France with his family but is employed in the UK and travels there weekly. As I understand it, if he spends more than 75% of his working time abroad then neither he nor his employer pays social security in France. He declares his tax-paid UK income for the purposes of calculating his household marginal income tax rate and obviously pays tax and s/s on any savings and investment income. Wife and kids are French and were already established in France before this arrangement started. Just saying there are ways of dealing with this, but it is probably only worth doing if you earn an above average salary.
There is still the notion in France that a husband is obligated to support his wife and thus a reasonable allowance can be paid without this being seen as the wife's income. In this context it differs from the maintenence paid by an ex-husband. Clearly this should not be an excessive sum but certainly €1,000 per month would not be a problem.
InVinoVeritas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jan 16th 2017, 2:22 pm   #18
BE Forum Addict
 
Joined: Jan 2012
Location: Dépt 61
Posts: 3,120
EuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Process to become Self Employed in France

Quote:
Originally Posted by south_bound View Post
"Under certain circumstances, it may be possible to agree with the French tax authority that the working spouse is not tax resident in France. In this case, income earned in the UK would not be declarable in France and the French resident ‘household’ for French tax purposes would consist solely of the non-working spouse and any children. However, the French tax office would expect the French resident non-working spouse to declare as income any ‘allowance’ paid to him or her by the UK resident spouse." taken from https://www.frenchentree.com/living-...ork-in-the-uk/. OK, not an official french government source but a starting point for researching it more fully...

I know an ex-colleague who lives in France with his family but is employed in the UK and travels there weekly. As I understand it, if he spends more than 75% of his working time abroad then neither he nor his employer pays social security in France. He declares his tax-paid UK income for the purposes of calculating his household marginal income tax rate and obviously pays tax and s/s on any savings and investment income. Wife and kids are French and were already established in France before this arrangement started. Just saying there are ways of dealing with this, but it is probably only worth doing if you earn an above average salary.
That's what one would expect to happen. If the work is carried out in the UK then it will be taxed in the UK, and France will apply the DTA, so they won't take any more tax on it. But normally it still has to be declared as part of household income, unless the couple are separated.

Since your ex-colleague is paying NICs in the UK, the UK funds his dependents' healthcare in France. The EU healthcare arrangement is that you only pay NICs in one country; normally you pay into the social security system of the country where you work and pay your income tax, and that country is responsible for you and your dependents whether you live in the UK or another EU state. Whether this will still the case after Brexit, remains to be seen.

But I still don't see which EU state other than the one where the family home is, is going to agree to take responsibity for a globe-trotting worker like the OP. You can't hop in and out of social security systems every time you do a two-week contract in a different country, you need a long term arrangement.
EuroTrash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jan 16th 2017, 2:41 pm   #19
BE Forum Addict
 
Joined: Jan 2012
Location: Dépt 61
Posts: 3,120
EuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Process to become Self Employed in France

Quote:
Originally Posted by InVinoVeritas View Post
Sorry ET, but I have to disagree with you. If you are married under "separation de biens" and elect to be taxed separately then both husband and wife can have seperate residences. This could be two different principal residences in France (with all the benfits which accrue such as reduced plus value on a sale) or you could be resident and taxed in different countries.
Yes, but this isn't automatic - you would need to make a request to the fisc and they would look at it to see if you meet the criteria, which is what I was thinking of when I said
Quote:
Originally Posted by EuroTrash View Post
AFAIK, the only way for a married couple to avoid being taxed as a household in France, apart from possibly coming to a special arrangement with the fisc, is to tick the box to say you are legally separated.
I'm not at all sure it applies in the OP's case because I don't think it is genuinely a two-home household. I think this arrangement applies when for instance the partners each have their own career that involves living in different places, and they each have a home where they live, pay the bills, use for their bank, put on their tax declaration etc - in other words, they have the kind of lifestyle that goes with the séparation des biens régime, where both partners are financially independent of each other. Séparation des biens when one partner is dependent on the other doesn't seem to fit, and whether the fisc would agree in a situation where in reality there is only one family home and only one main breadwinner, and the partner who works away stays in temporary accommodation and continues to use his home address for his bank accounts, pay the household bills (ie the centre of his economic interests), I don't know but I doubt it, after all what other "residence principale" does he have? It's fine saying that he doesn't live there permanently but in that case he needs to come up with a different address where he does live permanently, everybody has to have one residence principale.
EuroTrash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jan 16th 2017, 3:23 pm   #20
Hostage Negotiator
Premium Member
 
InVinoVeritas's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 5,135
InVinoVeritas has a reputation beyond reputeInVinoVeritas has a reputation beyond reputeInVinoVeritas has a reputation beyond reputeInVinoVeritas has a reputation beyond reputeInVinoVeritas has a reputation beyond reputeInVinoVeritas has a reputation beyond reputeInVinoVeritas has a reputation beyond reputeInVinoVeritas has a reputation beyond reputeInVinoVeritas has a reputation beyond reputeInVinoVeritas has a reputation beyond reputeInVinoVeritas has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Process to become Self Employed in France

Quote:
Originally Posted by EuroTrash View Post
Yes, but this isn't automatic - you would need to make a request to the fisc and they would look at it to see if you meet the criteria, which is what I was thinking of when I said.
That may be true if the husband and wife were living under the same roof and there was just one foyer fiscal but if the husband and wife have been making separate tax returns since the day they got married then one of them just notifies the fisc that he/she has gone to reside elsewhere.
InVinoVeritas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jan 16th 2017, 4:03 pm   #21
Austin. TX.
 
petitefrancaise's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 4,655
petitefrancaise has a reputation beyond reputepetitefrancaise has a reputation beyond reputepetitefrancaise has a reputation beyond reputepetitefrancaise has a reputation beyond reputepetitefrancaise has a reputation beyond reputepetitefrancaise has a reputation beyond reputepetitefrancaise has a reputation beyond reputepetitefrancaise has a reputation beyond reputepetitefrancaise has a reputation beyond reputepetitefrancaise has a reputation beyond reputepetitefrancaise has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Process to become Self Employed in France

To the OP, you really would be better off going to see an "expert-comptable". It's not just a matter of setting up a way of paying what you are supposed to but making sure that it fits with the way you are paid - regular, reliable income or sporadic? Differences from year to year?
I know an bi-lingual expert comptable in Toulouse with a large client base of international people, happy to share the info if you pm me.
petitefrancaise is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Dec 31st 2017, 9:08 am   #22
Just Joined
 
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 10
Cass555 is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: Process to become Self Employed in France

Hello Everyone
I'm sure I seen a link someone sent in regarding a company or person who assists setting up a business (Ltd. Co.) but know I cant seem to find it.
Really appreciate if the person can post again or send me via a message.

Many Thanks in advance
All the Best for 2018
Cass555 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Dec 31st 2017, 9:42 am   #23
dmu Female
Lost in BE Cyberspace
 
Joined: Apr 2008
Location: Hérault (34)
Posts: 6,528
dmu has a reputation beyond reputedmu has a reputation beyond reputedmu has a reputation beyond reputedmu has a reputation beyond reputedmu has a reputation beyond reputedmu has a reputation beyond reputedmu has a reputation beyond reputedmu has a reputation beyond reputedmu has a reputation beyond reputedmu has a reputation beyond reputedmu has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Process to become Self Employed in France

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cass555 View Post
Hello Everyone
I'm sure I seen a link someone sent in regarding a company or person who assists setting up a business (Ltd. Co.) but know I cant seem to find it.
Really appreciate if the person can post again or send me via a message.

Many Thanks in advance
All the Best for 2018
Petitefrançaise knows some one called Valérie, as mentioned somewhere in the long "Setting up a Business" thread in the above FAQs, and has suggested pm'ing her for info on someone in Toulouse.
If you're considering setting up the equivalent of a Ltd Co., be aware that the social charges/taxes are seriously cripplling. Been there, done that....

Last edited by dmu; Dec 31st 2017 at 9:53 am.
dmu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Dec 31st 2017, 10:11 am   #24
cyrian Male
BE Forum Addict
 
cyrian's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2009
Location: Scotland & Touraine [37]
Posts: 2,077
cyrian has a reputation beyond reputecyrian has a reputation beyond reputecyrian has a reputation beyond reputecyrian has a reputation beyond reputecyrian has a reputation beyond reputecyrian has a reputation beyond reputecyrian has a reputation beyond reputecyrian has a reputation beyond reputecyrian has a reputation beyond reputecyrian has a reputation beyond reputecyrian has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Process to become Self Employed in France

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmu View Post
Petitefrançaise knows some one called Valérie, as mentioned somewhere in the long "Setting up a Business" thread in the above FAQs, and has suggested pm'ing her for info on someone in Toulouse.
If you're considering setting up the equivalent of a Ltd Co., be aware that the social charges/taxes are seriously cripplling. Been there, done that....
That has already been suggested in post #3 / #4

This post has been dormant since January 2017.
cyrian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Dec 31st 2017, 11:04 am   #25
dmu Female
Lost in BE Cyberspace
 
Joined: Apr 2008
Location: Hérault (34)
Posts: 6,528
dmu has a reputation beyond reputedmu has a reputation beyond reputedmu has a reputation beyond reputedmu has a reputation beyond reputedmu has a reputation beyond reputedmu has a reputation beyond reputedmu has a reputation beyond reputedmu has a reputation beyond reputedmu has a reputation beyond reputedmu has a reputation beyond reputedmu has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Process to become Self Employed in France

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyrian View Post
That has already been suggested in post #3 / #4

This post has been dormant since January 2017.
Well spotted, and it's the OP who's come back almost a year later!
Maybe Mme Cass555 on the spot could be more dynamic?
dmu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Dec 31st 2017, 5:02 pm   #26
Just Joined
 
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 10
Cass555 is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: Process to become Self Employed in France

Hi dmu

Many thanks for taking time to respond. I finally found the link for Valerie and sent a message. I am really a bit lost !!! due to your warning about charges and Tax. One of the main points to do this in UK is that you benefit from lower Tax and even some benefits like writing things off to tax. Basically trying to assist people set up a business and move forward......................
All I want to do is legally work for myself and live in France and pay into the French system.

Happy New Year to You
All the Best
Cass555 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jan 1st 2018, 9:23 am   #27
BE Forum Addict
 
Joined: Jan 2012
Location: Dépt 61
Posts: 3,120
EuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Process to become Self Employed in France

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cass555 View Post
Hello Everyone
I'm sure I seen a link someone sent in regarding a company or person who assists setting up a business (Ltd. Co.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cass555 View Post
One of the main points to do this in UK is that ......................
My twopenn'orth would be, forget all about Ltd Co's because France does not have an equivalent 'one size fits all' business stucture; forget about what the main points are in the UK and what the UK encourages. France has a different economy, different priorities, different mindset, different expectations, it's a different country. So forget all about what you would do in the UK, start with an open mind and look at what the options are here and what the French government is encouraging.

There is a business structure called micro entreprise. It's a one person enterprise. It's not at all like a ltd co; for one thing it is not a separate business entity, for another thing you can't offset expenses against tax, your charges are calculated on flat rates as a percentage of turnover (not profit). It works for me, I've had a micro entreprise since 2010. And this is what the French government is encouraging at the moment, and I believe that one incentive they're offering as from today, 1.1.18, is that all new micro entreprises set up during 2018 will be exempt from social contributions for the first calendar year. This is potentially a huge incentive because in France, social charges are usually a far bigger burden than income tax.

I'm sure Valérie will explain the scheme to you and help you set up if necessary, though you can actually set it up yourself quite easily online.

Good luck with it all and a Happy New Year.


EDIT - Just read your first post, doh. I see you already mentioned micro entrepreneur. In fact the turnover limits are also being doubled as of now, so your probem with turnover might no longer be a probem. However, if you do a lot of travelling and have high overheads, you may be better off under portage salariale. There is a company called Challenges who offer this, you'll find it if you google Challenges freelancer in France. Can't remember if this has already been discussed on this thread and don't have time to reread it all now, sorry, New Year's Day is calling!

Last edited by EuroTrash; Jan 1st 2018 at 9:32 am.
EuroTrash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jan 1st 2018, 6:06 pm   #28
Just Joined
 
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 10
Cass555 is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: Process to become Self Employed in France

Hello Eurotrash
Thank you very much for your time once again.
Yes - I really do accept that I'm in France and don't expect things to be like UK ! Just running round in circles a little bit... But thanks for reminder, fair play.
All the very Best for New Year
Cass555 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jan 2nd 2018, 3:37 am   #29
Austin. TX.
 
petitefrancaise's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 4,655
petitefrancaise has a reputation beyond reputepetitefrancaise has a reputation beyond reputepetitefrancaise has a reputation beyond reputepetitefrancaise has a reputation beyond reputepetitefrancaise has a reputation beyond reputepetitefrancaise has a reputation beyond reputepetitefrancaise has a reputation beyond reputepetitefrancaise has a reputation beyond reputepetitefrancaise has a reputation beyond reputepetitefrancaise has a reputation beyond reputepetitefrancaise has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Process to become Self Employed in France

There are solutions out there... and someone familiar with international business should be able to help. I've pm'd some contacts for you.

Bear in mind that it may mean being somewhat creative - perhaps having a company based in the UK and portage salariale in France to get all your cotisations paid but not having to sign up to the whole business in france nightmare.

It would be easier if you could get employment via a consultancy company - does that not exist in your industry? accenture or something like that?
petitefrancaise is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jan 2nd 2018, 8:23 am   #30
Forum Regular
 
Joined: Mar 2009
Location: Bouche du Rhone (13)
Posts: 201
south_bound is just really nicesouth_bound is just really nicesouth_bound is just really nicesouth_bound is just really nicesouth_bound is just really nicesouth_bound is just really nicesouth_bound is just really nicesouth_bound is just really nice
Default Re: Process to become Self Employed in France

Quote:
Originally Posted by EuroTrash View Post
... and I believe that one incentive they're offering as from today, 1.1.18, is that all new micro entreprises set up during 2018 will be exempt from social contributions for the first calendar year. This is potentially a huge incentive because in France, social charges are usually a far bigger burden than income tax.
Do you have any good links to articles which explain this, or a go-to website for people setting up or working as micro-entrepreneur? My quick google search for "whats-new in 2018" brings up mainly the increase in allowable income and TVA issues, but only a side mention of exoneration of social charges this year.
south_bound is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   British Expats / Living & Moving Abroad / Europe / France


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT. The time now is 9:30 pm.


We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Powered by vBulletin: ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 1999-2010 BritishExpats.com