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Old Sep 23rd 2017, 4:59 pm   #16
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Default Re: Potential Bordeaux move in 2018

The OP is not talking about staying under the radar living quietly though. He's on about commuting to the UK every week to keep his job.
The OP's wife is actually in a safer position depending on how she takes or doesn't take money from her company.

I see more and more comments in the media about people wanting to leave the UK as Brexit looms - especially people who are European ( see Pulaski, I no longer think of the UK as Europe). People just like the OP who are thinking about leaving the UK to freelance for their existing jobs in UK and have no idea that they need to pay their taxes in France.

And Pulaski you are in no position to give advice on this. You have never lived in France, you have never worked in France.
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Old Sep 23rd 2017, 5:05 pm   #17
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Default Re: Potential Bordeaux move in 2018

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Originally Posted by petitefrancaise View Post
The OP is not talking about staying under the radar living quietly though. He's on about commuting to the UK every week to keep his job.
The OP's wife is actually in a safer position depending on how she takes or doesn't take money from her company.

I see more and more comments in the media about people wanting to leave the UK as Brexit looms - especially people who are European ( see Pulaski, I no longer think of the UK as Europe). People just like the OP who are thinking about leaving the UK to freelance for their existing jobs in UK and have no idea that they need to pay their taxes in France.

And Pulaski you are in no position to give advice on this. You have never lived in France, you have never worked in France.
I think in this instance I can speak for both of us. We are only referring to the initial 3-4 month period mentioned as a scoping visit in the OP's first post.
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Old Sep 23rd 2017, 5:19 pm   #18
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Default Re: Potential Bordeaux move in 2018

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I think in this instance I can speak for both of us. We are only referring to the initial 3-4 month period mentioned as a scoping visit in the OP's first post.
You are correct, and PF doesn't know my life history, nor my family connections to France, nor anything about my career or education, nor knowledge and experience supporting my post, and so should refrain from "advising" me on posting in a public forum!
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Old Sep 23rd 2017, 5:33 pm   #19
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Default Re: Potential Bordeaux move in 2018

Yes, but soon-to-be non-Eu foreigners shouldn't test grey areas. Deportation and other nasty stuff might be waiting.
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Old Sep 23rd 2017, 5:44 pm   #20
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Default Re: Potential Bordeaux move in 2018

Members of a public forum should not be advising others to break the law.

The great thing about BE is that if someone posts anything dubious then someone will come along and post something different. Say what you like about these posts but advising someone that they can work in France and probably get away with it is rather like telling someone they can shoplift and get away with it. Both are probably correct but neither one is good advice.
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Old Sep 23rd 2017, 6:02 pm   #21
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Default Re: Potential Bordeaux move in 2018

and the other great thing about BE is that everyone can take the various bits of information and advice and decide how to apply it to their circumstances (hopefully with a bit of common sense).
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Old Sep 23rd 2017, 6:45 pm   #22
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Default Re: Potential Bordeaux move in 2018

The OP seems to have left the building, with two schools of thought to take on board. At least we did respond in numbers,, even with opposing views. His query on the Spain forum didn't get any response....
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Old Sep 23rd 2017, 6:49 pm   #23
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Default Re: Potential Bordeaux move in 2018

I would suggest that anyone wondering whether they can move to France or another EU state to work read this:

Posted workers - Employment, Social Affairs & Inclusion - European Commission

it concerns the posting of workers temporarily in another EU country as well as whether you can be self-employed in another country.

FWIW I'd like to point out that I lived in France for 11 years and was both employed and had my own business. Perhaps Pulaski would like to clarify his experiences relevant to posting on this particular topic?
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Old Sep 23rd 2017, 6:52 pm   #24
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Default Re: Potential Bordeaux move in 2018

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The OP seems to have left the building, with two schools of thought to take on board. At least we did respond in numbers,, even with opposing views. His query on the Spain forum didn't get any response....
The good thing to come out of this is that I actually sat down to find out the relevant legislation.

It would appear that south-bound's colleague was probably acting perfectly legally. And that the OP's plans are still not legal.
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Old Sep 24th 2017, 7:41 am   #25
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Default Re: Potential Bordeaux move in 2018

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Originally Posted by petitefrancaise View Post
I would suggest that anyone wondering whether they can move to France or another EU state to work read this:

Posted workers - Employment, Social Affairs & Inclusion - European Commission

it concerns the posting of workers temporarily in another EU country as well as whether you can be self-employed in another country.

FWIW I'd like to point out that I lived in France for 11 years and was both employed and had my own business. Perhaps Pulaski would like to clarify his experiences relevant to posting on this particular topic?
This link is exactly what I was hoping for in #7.
Could it be posted in a Read Me FAQs for future reference?
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Old Sep 24th 2017, 8:45 am   #26
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Default Re: Potential Bordeaux move in 2018

Really, for 3 or 4 months, where's the big deal. Residence for the year is established retrospectively - if one of them wasn't working they couldn't even start applying to join the French social security system until they'd been here for 3 months minimum.

My main concern would be that living in France for 3 or 4 months as a visitor/posted worker/cross border worker/whatever, is not really going to give you the full flavour of what to expect if you live here "properly".

I kinda did what the OP is thinking of in that I explained to HMRC that I wanted to test the waters in France and applied for a workers S1, which they issued for 1 year on the basis that after the year I would either return to the UK or stop paying NICs and join the French system. In fact I cancelled the S1 after a few months because I'd made my mind up and I didn't like working here on an S1 with no siret number, even tho' it was perfectly legit. Potential clients were suspicious that I was on the black even after I'd tried to explain it, and I actually began to feel that I was cheating, it felt like an awkward in-between kind of situation, and in the end I was impatient to register here and get into line.

As said the OP seems to have left the room but if they happen to peep in through the keyhole, I hope they won't be put off pursuing their plans. The important thing is to liaise with the authorities and make sure they're OK with what you plan to do. As long as you're upfront with them and you take note of what they tell you, your back is covered.
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Old Sep 24th 2017, 2:11 pm   #27
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Default Re: Potential Bordeaux move in 2018

I think what ET did is specifically mentioned in the link I posted. I also think we should all read it and revise completely the advice given to people like the Dordogne Roofer.

As a UK self-employed person, you can move to France to pursue your work and stay with the UK tax/NI with a few caveats.

1. You have been established as self-employed in a particular field in the UK for at least 2 months.
2. The work that you do in France (or another EU state) is the same work as above.
3. It's limited to 24 months and is not renewable. I guess at this point you have to set up as a french micro-entreprise.

I skimmed the first part of the guidelines about being employed and moving to France. However, my understanding is that if your UK company wants you to work in France on a project in France then you can move and you have 2 years without having to pay into the french NI. This is what airbus does with it's UK workers in France for example. They get 2 years on their lovely expat deal and then they either go back to the UK or they transfer to French contract.

The OP on the other hand is not working on a french project in France for his employer. He is not currently self-employed. ET and Southbound's colleague both seem to have acted legally according to the guidelines, so saying that it was ok for them and should be for him, is not correct.

If the OP wanted to work in France as a self-employed contractor then his clients would have to be in France and he'd have 2 years.
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Old Sep 24th 2017, 2:38 pm   #28
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Default Re: Potential Bordeaux move in 2018

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Originally Posted by petitefrancaise View Post
I think what ET did is specifically mentioned in the link I posted. I also think we should all read it and revise completely the advice given to people like the Dordogne Roofer.

As a UK self-employed person, you can move to France to pursue your work and stay with the UK tax/NI with a few caveats.

1. You have been established as self-employed in a particular field in the UK for at least 2 months.
2. The work that you do in France (or another EU state) is the same work as above.
3. It's limited to 24 months and is not renewable. I guess at this point you have to set up as a french micro-entreprise.

I skimmed the first part of the guidelines about being employed and moving to France. However, my understanding is that if your UK company wants you to work in France on a project in France then you can move and you have 2 years without having to pay into the french NI. This is what airbus does with it's UK workers in France for example. They get 2 years on their lovely expat deal and then they either go back to the UK or they transfer to French contract.

The OP on the other hand is not working on a french project in France for his employer. He is not currently self-employed. ET and Southbound's colleague both seem to have acted legally according to the guidelines, so saying that it was ok for them and should be for him, is not correct.

If the OP wanted to work in France as a self-employed contractor then his clients would have to be in France and he'd have 2 years.
+1 to that, and good to see a link has been added to the advice thread. I would just add that in any case, it's not up to the individual to decide - if the UK issues you an S1 you are covered, and if they don't you are not, so rather than agonise over whether you would meet the criteria or not it is better to apply and see what happens. Sometimes their decisions are not what you would expect at first sight, or so it seems from what you read on forums; there are folks who get indignant because they think they meet all the criteria but their application was turned down, and folks like me who have a fairly flimsy case but are approved - I applied because why not, nothing to lose, and I was quite surprised to get one. So I suspect that there may be a hidden agenda that they use in addition to the published criteria. HMRC is well aware that UK social charges are low and French social charges are high and everyone would like an S1. But at the end of the day, the buck stops with HMRC, so even if you don't appear to meet the criteria, if you have an S1 you are legit and France can't odds it or if they do they have argue the toss with HMRC (which they won't), not with you. Likewise, no matter how sure you are that you should be entitled to keep on paying NICs, if HMRC says no then you have no legal option other than to register in France. You can't move to France and just keep paying NICs and not tell HMRC/DWP you are no longer resident in the UK.

However it may well all change post Brexit. For one thing the UK may be excluded from the arrangement, I don't think that's been clarified yet, and for another, all this touches on the areas that Macron has set his sights on the EU tightening up on because he feels it's being abused and leading to social dumping.

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Old Sep 24th 2017, 2:49 pm   #29
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Default Re: Potential Bordeaux move in 2018

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Originally Posted by petitefrancaise View Post
The OP on the other hand is not working on a french project in France for his employer. He is not currently self-employed.
No - but apparently he may be returning to the UK on a regular basis, so he wouldn't be a posted worker but he might be a cross border worker, ie lives in one country and works in another. I'm sure there are lots of expats who commute back to the UK and are covered by the UK social security system on this basis. HMRC will look at his work pattern and IF they consider that as a worker he is still UK based, even though his family home is in France, he will continue paying NICs in the UK. Usually that would mean spending most of the working week in the UK and not doing any significant work in France (at the end of the year you have to report how many days' work you did in your country of residence and how many days you spent in the UK). Any dependent family members in France would also be covered by the UK but if his wife is working in any capacity, she would not be a dependent.
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Old Sep 24th 2017, 2:51 pm   #30
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Default Re: Potential Bordeaux move in 2018

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However it may well all change post Brexit. For one thing the UK may be excluded from the arrangement, I don't think that's been clarified yet, and for another, all this touches on the areas that Macron has set his sights on the EU tightening up on because he feels it's being abused and leading to social dumping.
Macron might want to tighten up on this ET but I'm pretty sure that this would fall under one of those beloved 4 founding pillars of the EU - freedom of movement - so he's going to have a hard job there.

Since I'm now working in international relocation in the USA, I might go and ask some contacts if they have clear guidelines on this subject.

I'm sure we are going to have a lot more people coming on the forum and asking about moving to the EU as Brexit gets closer. Maybe a wiki that gets updated as we find out things would be good?
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