Potential Bordeaux move in 2018
Sep 25th 2017, 9:07 pm
#46
Born again atheist
Joined: Jul 2005
Location: Europe (to be specified).
Posts: 30,259
Re: Potential Bordeaux move in 2018
Hi All! WOW!
Sorry for being AWOL after my initial query - various excuses but non you need to know about ;o)
I really do appreciate all of the advice, I've had to skim read it due to the huge amounts of responses but I will review again properly and take some notes and check out any relevant links that you have kindly posted.
Someone has spotted my similar post in 'Spain' but our preference really is Bordeaux at this time subject to understanding the various issues/concerns/non-issues etc that have been debated above. I will also seek professional advice and it may be that we review our plans slightly to suit any legislation or tax concerns but I'll really have to take a look at the above thread properly first!
Once again, thanks for all of the offered advice - regardless of the different opinions it's all useful especially as we are looking so far ahead so have plenty of time to resolve any issues - I'm sure there will be many more queries as well!
Ref Brexit it has has nothing at all to do with our desire to move abroad, this is something we'd been looking to do since we met each other ten years ago - if anything it's spurred us into action.
Cheers
N
Sorry for being AWOL after my initial query - various excuses but non you need to know about ;o)
I really do appreciate all of the advice, I've had to skim read it due to the huge amounts of responses but I will review again properly and take some notes and check out any relevant links that you have kindly posted.
Someone has spotted my similar post in 'Spain' but our preference really is Bordeaux at this time subject to understanding the various issues/concerns/non-issues etc that have been debated above. I will also seek professional advice and it may be that we review our plans slightly to suit any legislation or tax concerns but I'll really have to take a look at the above thread properly first!
Once again, thanks for all of the offered advice - regardless of the different opinions it's all useful especially as we are looking so far ahead so have plenty of time to resolve any issues - I'm sure there will be many more queries as well!
Ref Brexit it has has nothing at all to do with our desire to move abroad, this is something we'd been looking to do since we met each other ten years ago - if anything it's spurred us into action.
Cheers
N
Sep 26th 2017, 10:31 pm
#47
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Location: North Kessock, Ross-shire Scotland and Treignac France
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Re: Potential Bordeaux move in 2018
one of the things I like about this forum is that it often goes a little off- topic and enables you to give information or ask a question which comes to mind as a result of the journey taken by the Thread.
Sep 26th 2017, 10:48 pm
#48
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Re: Potential Bordeaux move in 2018
I tried to get Loic CFA to start contributing on the forum but I think he gave up since he fell foul of the rules. Shame, he would have been just the person to advise the OP here.
Your wife is a company director of a UK company, I take it? She should be taking professional advice on all this. I know someone in Toulouse who could advise her. Please pm me if you want this contact.
Tax and residency rules...
"Hence, the second myth of the perceived ‘183 day rule’ is also dispelled.
When anyone has interests in various countries, it is often found that they satisfy the internal criteria for residence of more than one country. Understandably, this can be confusing. In France, you only have to satisfy one of the following four conditions and you will be resident in France:
(1) France is your ‘home’: If you have property in France and another country, but the latter is not available for your personal use (for example, because it is rented to tenants), then France is your home.
(2) France is your ‘centre of economic interest’: Generally, this means where your income is paid from. In addition to pension, salaries, etc., this can include bank interest and other investment income.
(3) France is your place of ‘habitual abode’: Notably, no reference is made in the law to the number of days that you actually spend in France and this is where many people are caught out, believing that if they do not spend at least 183 days in France, then they can decide that they are not resident. This is not the case and your place of ‘habitual abode’ is, quite simply, where you spend most time.
(4) Nationality: If your residency has not been established by any of the above points, then it will be your nationality that determines your residence, however, this is very rare."
this was taken from French Residency - Dispelling the Myths | The Spectrum IFA Group Daphne was someone I knew when I lived in Toulouse. She knows her stuff but you need an expert comptable with international experience.
And honestly, you really must have good french if you hope to find a job in France. Even in tech.
Your wife is a company director of a UK company, I take it? She should be taking professional advice on all this. I know someone in Toulouse who could advise her. Please pm me if you want this contact.
Tax and residency rules...
"Hence, the second myth of the perceived ‘183 day rule’ is also dispelled.
When anyone has interests in various countries, it is often found that they satisfy the internal criteria for residence of more than one country. Understandably, this can be confusing. In France, you only have to satisfy one of the following four conditions and you will be resident in France:
(1) France is your ‘home’: If you have property in France and another country, but the latter is not available for your personal use (for example, because it is rented to tenants), then France is your home.
(2) France is your ‘centre of economic interest’: Generally, this means where your income is paid from. In addition to pension, salaries, etc., this can include bank interest and other investment income.
(3) France is your place of ‘habitual abode’: Notably, no reference is made in the law to the number of days that you actually spend in France and this is where many people are caught out, believing that if they do not spend at least 183 days in France, then they can decide that they are not resident. This is not the case and your place of ‘habitual abode’ is, quite simply, where you spend most time.
(4) Nationality: If your residency has not been established by any of the above points, then it will be your nationality that determines your residence, however, this is very rare."
this was taken from French Residency - Dispelling the Myths | The Spectrum IFA Group Daphne was someone I knew when I lived in Toulouse. She knows her stuff but you need an expert comptable with international experience.
And honestly, you really must have good french if you hope to find a job in France. Even in tech.
Yes I know Scotland is still in the Uk , but following the latest stage of devolution , there can be differences in taxation between the various countries of the Uk.
I am also led to believe that the occupational pensions of teachers, nurses , civil servants and a host of others are taxed by HMRC regardless of where the pensioner is living.
Sep 27th 2017, 8:52 am
#49
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Location: Scotland & Touraine [37]
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Re: Potential Bordeaux move in 2018
We are thinking about renting or buying or renting a property in England so that we will be nearer our Grand children. It could easily be that we spend more time in our French House than our current house in Scotland or a future house in England.
Yes I know Scotland is still in the Uk , but following the latest stage of devolution , there can be differences in taxation between the various countries of the Uk.
I am also led to believe that the occupational pensions of teachers, nurses , civil servants and a host of others are taxed by HMRC regardless of where the pensioner is living.
Yes I know Scotland is still in the Uk , but following the latest stage of devolution , there can be differences in taxation between the various countries of the Uk.
I am also led to believe that the occupational pensions of teachers, nurses , civil servants and a host of others are taxed by HMRC regardless of where the pensioner is living.
You are correct in that Government pensions are taxed in the UK but State Pensions are not taxed at all and therefore would be counted in your French tax return.
Although the State Pension is not taxed in the UK it will affect your UK tax code which is applied to other pensions.
Last edited by cyrian; Sep 27th 2017 at 8:58 am. Reason: typo
Sep 27th 2017, 4:32 pm
#50
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Re: Potential Bordeaux move in 2018
You should read the UK - France Double Taxation Convention because the rules are slightly different for retired citizens or otherwise non-employed citizens vis-a-vis those with earned income.
You are correct in that Government pensions are taxed in the UK but State Pensions are not taxed at all and therefore would be counted in your French tax return.
Although the State Pension is not taxed in the UK it will affect your UK tax code which is applied to other pensions.
You are correct in that Government pensions are taxed in the UK but State Pensions are not taxed at all and therefore would be counted in your French tax return.
Although the State Pension is not taxed in the UK it will affect your UK tax code which is applied to other pensions.
In article 4 para 2 (a) I read
(a) he shall be deemed to be a resident only of the Contracting State in which he has a permanent home available to him; if he has a permanent home available to him in both States, he shall be deemed to be a resident only of the State with which his personal and economic relations are closer (centre of vital interests);
I take from this that since I have a permanent home in both France and the UK, I can only be a resident of the UK because my economic relations are closer to the Uk due to my pension being automatically taxed by HMRC
Sep 27th 2017, 6:21 pm
#51
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Re: Potential Bordeaux move in 2018
Thanks .I have had a look on https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...-_in_force.pdf
In article 4 para 2 (a) I read
(a) he shall be deemed to be a resident only of the Contracting State in which he has a permanent home available to him; if he has a permanent home available to him in both States, he shall be deemed to be a resident only of the State with which his personal and economic relations are closer (centre of vital interests);
I take from this that since I have a permanent home in both France and the UK, I can only be a resident of the UK because my economic relations are closer to the Uk due to my pension being automatically taxed by HMRC
In article 4 para 2 (a) I read
(a) he shall be deemed to be a resident only of the Contracting State in which he has a permanent home available to him; if he has a permanent home available to him in both States, he shall be deemed to be a resident only of the State with which his personal and economic relations are closer (centre of vital interests);
I take from this that since I have a permanent home in both France and the UK, I can only be a resident of the UK because my economic relations are closer to the Uk due to my pension being automatically taxed by HMRC
That is how I would read it but I know that a french expert-comptable friend may not agree nor the FISC because they know only their own tax laws.
The Double Tax Convention is the final decision and it sits above national tax rules.
https://www.connexionfrance.com/Arch...-wrong-country
You probably need to ask the tax authorities in both countries.
Sep 27th 2017, 8:06 pm
#52
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Re: Potential Bordeaux move in 2018
we are not that far off - topic. After all the O P did say he might spend 3 nights in the UK.
Is it stretching things too far to suggest renting somewhere in the UK as well as France.
That becomes two permanent homes and their "personal economic relations are closer to the UK.: i.e. they cannot be considered as residents of France
Is it stretching things too far to suggest renting somewhere in the UK as well as France.
That becomes two permanent homes and their "personal economic relations are closer to the UK.: i.e. they cannot be considered as residents of France
Sep 28th 2017, 9:18 am
#53
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Re: Potential Bordeaux move in 2018
we are not that far off - topic. After all the O P did say he might spend 3 nights in the UK.
Is it stretching things too far to suggest renting somewhere in the UK as well as France.
That becomes two permanent homes and their "personal economic relations are closer to the UK.: i.e. they cannot be considered as residents of France
Is it stretching things too far to suggest renting somewhere in the UK as well as France.
That becomes two permanent homes and their "personal economic relations are closer to the UK.: i.e. they cannot be considered as residents of France
This point is relevant to the OP.
Each tax authority would want to keep you.
That is why the Tax Convention is there to be the final arbiter of a particular situation.
However, you cannot choose your tax residency and you cannot use your interpretation of the tax laws.
Tax residency is a matter of fact as defined by national tax laws or international convention.
In cases of dispute (between HMRS and the FISC) then the Convention decides for each individual situation.
The UK and French tax authorities will agree between themselves where an individual is tax resident.
In another thread, you said that you rented gites and that it was considered to be a hobby by HMRC. However, it is not a hobby in France - it is a business and you should be declaring this income and paying any tax due in France.
That is the opinion of my french expert-comptable friend.
HTH
Sep 28th 2017, 10:27 am
#54
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Re: Potential Bordeaux move in 2018
"We are thinking about renting or buying or renting a property in England so that we will be nearer our Grand children. It could easily be that we spend more time in our French House than our current house in Scotland or a future house in England.
Yes I know Scotland is still in the Uk , but following the latest stage of devolution , there can be differences in taxation between the various countries of the Uk."
AFAIK the tax treaty is between France and the UK, not France and England, so at present it comes down to ties with France versus ties with the UK. As you say ths may all be up for renegotiation but not in the next few years, I think the UK's negotiators have their hands more than full for the time being.
As Cyrian points out, since you've taken a leaf out of TM's book and opted to be creative and imaginative with your interpretation of the part of the tax treaty where it states very clearly that rental income is always taxable in the country where the property is situated, it would seem wise to carefully avoid attracting the fisc's attention in any way, shape or form, especially while you're still doing chambre d'hotes or gites or whichever it is.
Yes I know Scotland is still in the Uk , but following the latest stage of devolution , there can be differences in taxation between the various countries of the Uk."
AFAIK the tax treaty is between France and the UK, not France and England, so at present it comes down to ties with France versus ties with the UK. As you say ths may all be up for renegotiation but not in the next few years, I think the UK's negotiators have their hands more than full for the time being.
As Cyrian points out, since you've taken a leaf out of TM's book and opted to be creative and imaginative with your interpretation of the part of the tax treaty where it states very clearly that rental income is always taxable in the country where the property is situated, it would seem wise to carefully avoid attracting the fisc's attention in any way, shape or form, especially while you're still doing chambre d'hotes or gites or whichever it is.
Sep 28th 2017, 5:23 pm
#55
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Location: North Kessock, Ross-shire Scotland and Treignac France
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Re: Potential Bordeaux move in 2018
I was a bit taken aback when I saw this on one of the sites mentioned on this forum.
Under the UK-France double taxation treaty rental incomefrom a UK property is taxed in the UK as that is where it arises.
While rental income is not directly taxed in France, itshould still be declared as it is taken into account in calculating the tauxeffectif – the effective rates of tax applying to your other income that isdirectly taxable in France, such as investment, salary or pension income
https://www.connexionfrance.com/Archive/Don-t-pay-tax-in-wrong-country
For my own piece of mind , it might be better for me to contact the French Tax Authorities- for clarification and information if nothing else.
I started small scale Chambres d'hote on the understanding that the French Government /Tax authorities allowed one to earn about 4.500 euros before being liable for tax.
The other thing that niggles is that my bank persuded me a long time ago to take out a"Livre A" -or something like that which is a bit like an ISA.
Again , it seems weird to have an account savings that is excempt from tax when I'm not (at the moment) a tax payer. The Bank (CA) knows I am not a French Resident because they send all correspondence to Scotland
Under the UK-France double taxation treaty rental incomefrom a UK property is taxed in the UK as that is where it arises.
While rental income is not directly taxed in France, itshould still be declared as it is taken into account in calculating the tauxeffectif – the effective rates of tax applying to your other income that isdirectly taxable in France, such as investment, salary or pension income
https://www.connexionfrance.com/Archive/Don-t-pay-tax-in-wrong-country
For my own piece of mind , it might be better for me to contact the French Tax Authorities- for clarification and information if nothing else.
I started small scale Chambres d'hote on the understanding that the French Government /Tax authorities allowed one to earn about 4.500 euros before being liable for tax.
The other thing that niggles is that my bank persuded me a long time ago to take out a"Livre A" -or something like that which is a bit like an ISA.
Again , it seems weird to have an account savings that is excempt from tax when I'm not (at the moment) a tax payer. The Bank (CA) knows I am not a French Resident because they send all correspondence to Scotland
Sep 28th 2017, 5:57 pm
#56
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Joined: Apr 2009
Location: Scotland & Touraine [37]
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Re: Potential Bordeaux move in 2018
I was a bit taken aback when I saw this on one of the sites mentioned on this forum.
Under the UK-France double taxation treaty rental incomefrom a UK property is taxed in the UK as that is where it arises.
While rental income is not directly taxed in France, itshould still be declared as it is taken into account in calculating the tauxeffectif – the effective rates of tax applying to your other income that isdirectly taxable in France, such as investment, salary or pension income
https://www.connexionfrance.com/Archive/Don-t-pay-tax-in-wrong-country
For my own piece of mind , it might be better for me to contact the French Tax Authorities- for clarification and information if nothing else.
I started small scale Chambres d'hote on the understanding that the French Government /Tax authorities allowed one to earn about 4.500 euros before being liable for tax.
The other thing that niggles is that my bank persuded me a long time ago to take out a"Livre A" -or something like that which is a bit like an ISA.
Again , it seems weird to have an account savings that is excempt from tax when I'm not (at the moment) a tax payer. The Bank (CA) knows I am not a French Resident because they send all correspondence to Scotland
Under the UK-France double taxation treaty rental incomefrom a UK property is taxed in the UK as that is where it arises.
While rental income is not directly taxed in France, itshould still be declared as it is taken into account in calculating the tauxeffectif – the effective rates of tax applying to your other income that isdirectly taxable in France, such as investment, salary or pension income
https://www.connexionfrance.com/Archive/Don-t-pay-tax-in-wrong-country
For my own piece of mind , it might be better for me to contact the French Tax Authorities- for clarification and information if nothing else.
I started small scale Chambres d'hote on the understanding that the French Government /Tax authorities allowed one to earn about 4.500 euros before being liable for tax.
The other thing that niggles is that my bank persuded me a long time ago to take out a"Livre A" -or something like that which is a bit like an ISA.
Again , it seems weird to have an account savings that is excempt from tax when I'm not (at the moment) a tax payer. The Bank (CA) knows I am not a French Resident because they send all correspondence to Scotland
Sent you a PM
Sep 28th 2017, 11:04 pm
#57
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Location: North Kessock, Ross-shire Scotland and Treignac France
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Re: Potential Bordeaux move in 2018
Thank you - good idea. -got pm thanks
Question (1) does anyone know web address for the French version of
UK/FRANCE
DOUBLE TAXATION CONVENTION
SIGNED IN LONDON ON 19 JUNE 2008
Entered into force 18 December 2009
Effective in UK from 1 April 2010 for corporation tax and from 6 April 2010 for income tax and capital gains tax
Effective in France from 1 January 2010
HM Revenue & Customs
December 2009
so that I can quote it French officials including banks
Question 2 Does the French Tax System have a help line like HMRC which you can phone and discuss issues (often without giving your details)
Do they have English speaking staff (like EDF) ?
Question (1) does anyone know web address for the French version of
UK/FRANCE
DOUBLE TAXATION CONVENTION
SIGNED IN LONDON ON 19 JUNE 2008
Entered into force 18 December 2009
Effective in UK from 1 April 2010 for corporation tax and from 6 April 2010 for income tax and capital gains tax
Effective in France from 1 January 2010
HM Revenue & Customs
December 2009
so that I can quote it French officials including banks
Question 2 Does the French Tax System have a help line like HMRC which you can phone and discuss issues (often without giving your details)
Do they have English speaking staff (like EDF) ?
Sep 29th 2017, 6:35 am
#58
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Posts: 5,254
Re: Potential Bordeaux move in 2018
Usually people go and talk to their local tax office, which unlike the UK you can still do. Some tax offices have English speaking staff and some don't. If you live in an area with lots of expats, they probably will have. My tax office has one particular guy who specialises in foreign tax, I don't know if he speaks English or not because I've never asked him, but I imagine he can.
Last edited by EuroTrash; Sep 29th 2017 at 6:39 am.
Sep 29th 2017, 1:56 pm
#59
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Location: Scotland & Touraine [37]
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Re: Potential Bordeaux move in 2018
Try this.
I didn't read it but it looks like it.
https://www.impots.gouv.fr/portail/f...68_fd_1789.pdf
Be careful, french people understand their system only.
If you are lucky enough to find someone who is prepared to recognise that other tax regimes or even international tax conventions actually exist then you may make progress.
Worthwhile talking to HMRC.
HTH
I didn't read it but it looks like it.
https://www.impots.gouv.fr/portail/f...68_fd_1789.pdf
Be careful, french people understand their system only.
If you are lucky enough to find someone who is prepared to recognise that other tax regimes or even international tax conventions actually exist then you may make progress.
Worthwhile talking to HMRC.
HTH
Sep 29th 2017, 11:43 pm
#60
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Location: North Kessock, Ross-shire Scotland and Treignac France
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Re: Potential Bordeaux move in 2018
Thanks Cyrian . I've looked and it's a good translation(for me anyway).
It will be sometime before I return to Treignac and visit the Tresor (if it doesn't get shut down; its hours have been much reduced).
I think I will phone HMRC and see if they know of a French Tax helpline.
Ignorance is no excuse, but neither France or the UK have a simple system for people like me who haven't a clue what to do.
It will be sometime before I return to Treignac and visit the Tresor (if it doesn't get shut down; its hours have been much reduced).
I think I will phone HMRC and see if they know of a French Tax helpline.
Ignorance is no excuse, but neither France or the UK have a simple system for people like me who haven't a clue what to do.