Newie with specific questions
#46
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Sep 2012
Location: Provence
Posts: 803
Re: Newie with specific questions
[QUOTE=dmu;11549175]We did the same with our two daughters - it takes time, as there are limits to the value of property which can be "donated" in one go, but over the years they have become joint owners of our house, with both of us having usufruit. To be honest, it was to avoid our house being included in OH's Succession and divided between all of his children, and advised by the Notaire in order to "protect" his youngest two. All legal and above board.
On the other hand, I'm not sure it would work for the OPs if they wish to "donate" their property to just one daughter. The Notaire who deals with their property purchase is best placed to advise.
/QUOTE]
The friends started this process as soon as the children were of age. I wonder If OP's daughter could be a joint owner from the start?? Don't see any reason why not
We too changed our marriage regime
On the other hand, I'm not sure it would work for the OPs if they wish to "donate" their property to just one daughter. The Notaire who deals with their property purchase is best placed to advise.
/QUOTE]
The friends started this process as soon as the children were of age. I wonder If OP's daughter could be a joint owner from the start?? Don't see any reason why not
We too changed our marriage regime
#47
Re: Newie with specific questions
We did the same with our two daughters - it takes time, as there are limits to the value of property which can be "donated" in one go, but over the years they have become joint owners of our house, with both of us having usufruit. To be honest, it was to avoid our house being included in OH's Succession and divided between all of his children, and advised by the Notaire in order to "protect" his youngest two. All legal and above board.
On the other hand, I'm not sure it would work for the OPs if they wish to "donate" their property to just one daughter. The Notaire who deals with their property purchase is best placed to advise.
@CS - in a "Tontine", what happens when both parents have passed on? Do the children inherit the property equally?
On the other hand, I'm not sure it would work for the OPs if they wish to "donate" their property to just one daughter. The Notaire who deals with their property purchase is best placed to advise.
@CS - in a "Tontine", what happens when both parents have passed on? Do the children inherit the property equally?
#49
Re: Newie with specific questions
#50
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Jan 2012
Location: Dépt 61
Posts: 5,254
Re: Newie with specific questions
Are you feeling a bit blue today, Cyrian?
#51
Re: Newie with specific questions
We were concerned with who looked after the children's interests if one party had died. If the children are minors can the remaining parent sell up and bugger off where they choose i.e. repatriation to country of birth?
#52
Re: Newie with specific questions
I don't think they can sell out from underneath the waiting beneficiaries but this is a very complex subject about which I know far too little.
#54
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Apr 2008
Location: Hérault (34)
Posts: 8,888
Re: Newie with specific questions
As mentioned, life (and death) becomes complicated in the case of familles recomposées (and unmarried couples with or without children) and the Notaires are there to propose solutions in everyone's best interests....
#55
Re: Newie with specific questions
France is a good choice of country in which to be ill but a poor choice of country in which to die. Unfortunately one often leads to the other
#56
Re: Newie with specific questions
THE TONTINE CLAUSE
Historically the clause de tontine has been much favoured by UK purchasers of French real estate as it has been seen as a solution to the inheritance/succession situation under French law whilst protecting the interests of the surviving spouse. It was first introduced to France by the Italian banker Lorenzo Tonti back in 17 th century for the purpose of multi subscriber purchases of real estate investment. Each subscriber paid a sum into the fund and received a divided payment from the investment. As each investor died, their share was divided amongst the others until only one remained. In its contemporary application the tontine clause (or clause d’accroissement) is a mechanism whereby ownership of the property passes to the surviving partner, who upon the death of the first partner is considered retrospectively to have been the sole owner since the date of acquisition. The tontine clause must be inserted at the time of signing the original purchase title deed (acte de vente). It can only be revoked by agreement between the parties and this must be done by notarised deed of renunciation. Some notaires are reluctant to include the tontine clause, as they perceive it as dangerous by virtue of its rigidity. The general situation is that where a property is purchased jointly all owners have to be in agreement to sell, lease or to constitute a charge over the property. If an agreement cannot be reached the owners can ultimately appeal to the court to resolve the issue. However where a purchase is made en tontine , should for example one owner wishes to sell and the other not, if there exists no possibility of amicable agreement the owners are locked into the situation literally until death. Notwithstanding this disadvantage the clause itself is challengeable under certain circumstances where for example potentially aggrieved third parties could claim that the clause was simply a device to circumnavigate the inheritance rules in order to disinherit a valid heir. Under certain conditions such a challenge may well succeed. However, all being well the surviving partner does become the absolute owner and has complete freedom of action over the property as if the first partner had never had an interest in the estate. This replicates the state of affairs we in the UK recognise as joint tenancy. Finally it should be considered that the tontine does leave the inheritance situation upon the demise of the survivor open to significant tax disadvantages. Therefore, it is wise to seek personally tailored advice as alternatives exist that may better cater to your needs providing a more inheritance tax advantageous outcome.
Historically the clause de tontine has been much favoured by UK purchasers of French real estate as it has been seen as a solution to the inheritance/succession situation under French law whilst protecting the interests of the surviving spouse. It was first introduced to France by the Italian banker Lorenzo Tonti back in 17 th century for the purpose of multi subscriber purchases of real estate investment. Each subscriber paid a sum into the fund and received a divided payment from the investment. As each investor died, their share was divided amongst the others until only one remained. In its contemporary application the tontine clause (or clause d’accroissement) is a mechanism whereby ownership of the property passes to the surviving partner, who upon the death of the first partner is considered retrospectively to have been the sole owner since the date of acquisition. The tontine clause must be inserted at the time of signing the original purchase title deed (acte de vente). It can only be revoked by agreement between the parties and this must be done by notarised deed of renunciation. Some notaires are reluctant to include the tontine clause, as they perceive it as dangerous by virtue of its rigidity. The general situation is that where a property is purchased jointly all owners have to be in agreement to sell, lease or to constitute a charge over the property. If an agreement cannot be reached the owners can ultimately appeal to the court to resolve the issue. However where a purchase is made en tontine , should for example one owner wishes to sell and the other not, if there exists no possibility of amicable agreement the owners are locked into the situation literally until death. Notwithstanding this disadvantage the clause itself is challengeable under certain circumstances where for example potentially aggrieved third parties could claim that the clause was simply a device to circumnavigate the inheritance rules in order to disinherit a valid heir. Under certain conditions such a challenge may well succeed. However, all being well the surviving partner does become the absolute owner and has complete freedom of action over the property as if the first partner had never had an interest in the estate. This replicates the state of affairs we in the UK recognise as joint tenancy. Finally it should be considered that the tontine does leave the inheritance situation upon the demise of the survivor open to significant tax disadvantages. Therefore, it is wise to seek personally tailored advice as alternatives exist that may better cater to your needs providing a more inheritance tax advantageous outcome.
To explain - the blue is text I am quoting from another source - to distinguish from my own words of wisdom.
:mod edit to remove blue type as requested:.
Last edited by BEVS; Jan 30th 2015 at 7:44 pm. Reason: edit out blue type
#59
Re: Newie with specific questions
If you press the button in the editor it add's two quote tags ike below so enter/paste your text in the middle and the quote does in a box like all the other guff...
PHP Code:
[QUOTE] Paste text here [/QUOTE]
Honestly that blue stuff makes for unpleasant morning reading...
Source...... http://www.anglofrenchlaw.co.uk/adva...us_vehicle.htm
THE TONTINE CLAUSE
Historically the clause de tontine has been much favoured by UK purchasers of French real estate as it has been seen as a solution to the inheritance/succession situation under French law whilst protecting the interests of the surviving spouse. It was first introduced to France by the Italian banker Lorenzo Tonti back in 17 th century for the purpose of multi subscriber purchases of real estate investment. Each subscriber paid a sum into the fund and received a divided payment from the investment. As each investor died, their share was divided amongst the others until only one remained. In its contemporary application the tontine clause (or clause d’accroissement) is a mechanism whereby ownership of the property passes to the surviving partner, who upon the death of the first partner is considered retrospectively to have been the sole owner since the date of acquisition. The tontine clause must be inserted at the time of signing the original purchase title deed (acte de vente). It can only be revoked by agreement between the parties and this must be done by notarised deed of renunciation. Some notaires are reluctant to include the tontine clause, as they perceive it as dangerous by virtue of its rigidity. The general situation is that where a property is purchased jointly all owners have to be in agreement to sell, lease or to constitute a charge over the property. If an agreement cannot be reached the owners can ultimately appeal to the court to resolve the issue. However where a purchase is made en tontine , should for example one owner wishes to sell and the other not, if there exists no possibility of amicable agreement the owners are locked into the situation literally until death. Notwithstanding this disadvantage the clause itself is challengeable under certain circumstances where for example potentially aggrieved third parties could claim that the clause was simply a device to circumnavigate the inheritance rules in order to disinherit a valid heir. Under certain conditions such a challenge may well succeed. However, all being well the surviving partner does become the absolute owner and has complete freedom of action over the property as if the first partner had never had an interest in the estate. This replicates the state of affairs we in the UK recognise as joint tenancy. Finally it should be considered that the tontine does leave the inheritance situation upon the demise of the survivor open to significant tax disadvantages. Therefore, it is wise to seek personally tailored advice as alternatives exist that may better cater to your needs providing a more inheritance tax advantageous outcome.
Historically the clause de tontine has been much favoured by UK purchasers of French real estate as it has been seen as a solution to the inheritance/succession situation under French law whilst protecting the interests of the surviving spouse. It was first introduced to France by the Italian banker Lorenzo Tonti back in 17 th century for the purpose of multi subscriber purchases of real estate investment. Each subscriber paid a sum into the fund and received a divided payment from the investment. As each investor died, their share was divided amongst the others until only one remained. In its contemporary application the tontine clause (or clause d’accroissement) is a mechanism whereby ownership of the property passes to the surviving partner, who upon the death of the first partner is considered retrospectively to have been the sole owner since the date of acquisition. The tontine clause must be inserted at the time of signing the original purchase title deed (acte de vente). It can only be revoked by agreement between the parties and this must be done by notarised deed of renunciation. Some notaires are reluctant to include the tontine clause, as they perceive it as dangerous by virtue of its rigidity. The general situation is that where a property is purchased jointly all owners have to be in agreement to sell, lease or to constitute a charge over the property. If an agreement cannot be reached the owners can ultimately appeal to the court to resolve the issue. However where a purchase is made en tontine , should for example one owner wishes to sell and the other not, if there exists no possibility of amicable agreement the owners are locked into the situation literally until death. Notwithstanding this disadvantage the clause itself is challengeable under certain circumstances where for example potentially aggrieved third parties could claim that the clause was simply a device to circumnavigate the inheritance rules in order to disinherit a valid heir. Under certain conditions such a challenge may well succeed. However, all being well the surviving partner does become the absolute owner and has complete freedom of action over the property as if the first partner had never had an interest in the estate. This replicates the state of affairs we in the UK recognise as joint tenancy. Finally it should be considered that the tontine does leave the inheritance situation upon the demise of the survivor open to significant tax disadvantages. Therefore, it is wise to seek personally tailored advice as alternatives exist that may better cater to your needs providing a more inheritance tax advantageous outcome.
Last edited by Chatter Static; Jan 30th 2015 at 7:01 am.