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Start of our Journey to France - Locations?

Start of our Journey to France - Locations?

Old Aug 14th 2017, 8:18 am
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Default Start of our Journey to France - Locations?

Hello!

We have recently decided that we are going to move the family to France and I am hoping that you very experienced people can offer me some advice please.

My family consists of myself and my partner, four children aged 18, 14, 11 and 1, and we have two dogs. My partner is an IT Director and I work full time for a home schooling organisation based at home. I have a 3 bed house that I am in the process of selling and currently we rent a bigger house with a huge monthly rent payment. Our plan was to sell the smaller house and buy something bigger but the mortgage will be big as houses are not cheap in our area (Oxfordshire).

I have always loved the idea of living in France and after a recent holiday and yet another discussion about how we can make life easier, we have decided that making the move might be the right thing for us. The thought of being mortgage/rent free is very attractive, but I do realise that we will still need to work and bring in enough money to live.

I believe that my employer will be happy for me to work from France and still do my job, but I need to look into the implications of working for a UK company and paying tax in France. My partner is another matter as he will need to find new employment and currently has very little French.

Initially, my thoughts were to move to Normandy as it is close to the UK and property seems to be well priced however, after doing some research and thinking about schooling and my partners work, I have decided that we could do with living within commutable distance of a big town/city, but I am not sure where this should be. Ideally I would love to live in an area of nice countryside or in/near a market type town. I do not want to be out in the middle of nowhere though as I think it is important for us all to be able to integrate into French life and make friends.

I have so many questions about so many things (will post separately) but firstly, I want to think about possible locations. I only really know the Dordogne and have recently been to Brittany, but I am very open to other practical suggestions. I like the idea of being close to an airport or within reasonable distance (without overnight stops) of a ferry port or the tunnel.

The schools are obviously a huge priority for me especially as the children are older. My eldest intends to move with us at the moment but her university plans may change that. I am not worried about the move for her. My 11 and 14 year old may find it harder though transferring to a French school, so I think we will need an international school or one that accommodates English speaking students as well.

So I guess after all that my question is, does anyone have any suggestions of good locations to consider that might help me focus my search a little more. I am particularly having trouble finding information about schools online so any advice on where has a good selection for ex pats would be great. I could home school my 11 year old, but I don't want him at home. Not only would it drive me potty (doing homework has always been a challenge ) but I want him to make friends and integrate into French life.

Also is there any particular area that is good for IT workers other than Paris?

I apologise for the long post and lots of waffle and I look forward to hearing any suggestions, advice or reality checks that you can offer! Many thanks!
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Old Aug 14th 2017, 8:47 am
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Default Re: Start of our Journey to France - Locations?

Hi
Would your employer also be prepared to pay French social charges also?
As a former employer, I wouldn't have wanted to make such specific (and expensive) arrangements for one employee.
You can look at Sophia Antipolis which is a centre for tech firms.
There are a lot of french bi-lingual IT specialists looking for work in France and the jobs market (CV and application process) is different.
Have a forum search (in the blue bar top right under the list of pages) for "IT" to read previous threads.
HTH
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Old Aug 14th 2017, 9:01 am
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Default Re: Start of our Journey to France - Locations?

If you are going to rely on your partner's job for income then I would suggest that you don't start choosing locations beforehand. With no french and looking for a very senior level position its going to be just about impossible and any job he gets offered you should probably jump at.
He could also look into working remotely and being self employed or have him set up as a consultant (his own business) in the UK. This would not be without its tax issues but it's doable and may be his beat option if his company are up for it.

In the mean time, I suggest all of you start learning French, Alliance Francaise would be a good choice.


You would need to set yourself up as a self employed person in France unless your organization has a French subsidiary that could employ you?
The kids? You need to search for ecole international france perhaps?
I'm assuming your 18 year old will finish her secondary education in the UK? Then university there?
Brexit may mean that you have to pay international rates if you are living in France and she goes to the UK. That's all up in the air right now as well.
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Old Aug 14th 2017, 9:17 am
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Default Re: Start of our Journey to France - Locations?

Originally Posted by Frenchbread
Hello!

We have recently decided that we are going to move the family to France and I am hoping that you very experienced people can offer me some advice please.

My family consists of myself and my partner, four children aged 18, 14, 11 and 1, and we have two dogs. My partner is an IT Director and I work full time for a home schooling organisation based at home. I have a 3 bed house that I am in the process of selling and currently we rent a bigger house with a huge monthly rent payment. Our plan was to sell the smaller house and buy something bigger but the mortgage will be big as houses are not cheap in our area (Oxfordshire).

I have always loved the idea of living in France and after a recent holiday and yet another discussion about how we can make life easier, we have decided that making the move might be the right thing for us. The thought of being mortgage/rent free is very attractive, but I do realise that we will still need to work and bring in enough money to live.

I believe that my employer will be happy for me to work from France and still do my job, but I need to look into the implications of working for a UK company and paying tax in France. My partner is another matter as he will need to find new employment and currently has very little French.

Initially, my thoughts were to move to Normandy as it is close to the UK and property seems to be well priced however, after doing some research and thinking about schooling and my partners work, I have decided that we could do with living within commutable distance of a big town/city, but I am not sure where this should be. Ideally I would love to live in an area of nice countryside or in/near a market type town. I do not want to be out in the middle of nowhere though as I think it is important for us all to be able to integrate into French life and make friends.

I have so many questions about so many things (will post separately) but firstly, I want to think about possible locations. I only really know the Dordogne and have recently been to Brittany, but I am very open to other practical suggestions. I like the idea of being close to an airport or within reasonable distance (without overnight stops) of a ferry port or the tunnel.

The schools are obviously a huge priority for me especially as the children are older. My eldest intends to move with us at the moment but her university plans may change that. I am not worried about the move for her. My 11 and 14 year old may find it harder though transferring to a French school, so I think we will need an international school or one that accommodates English speaking students as well.

So I guess after all that my question is, does anyone have any suggestions of good locations to consider that might help me focus my search a little more. I am particularly having trouble finding information about schools online so any advice on where has a good selection for ex pats would be great. I could home school my 11 year old, but I don't want him at home. Not only would it drive me potty (doing homework has always been a challenge ) but I want him to make friends and integrate into French life.

Also is there any particular area that is good for IT workers other than Paris?

I apologise for the long post and lots of waffle and I look forward to hearing any suggestions, advice or reality checks that you can offer! Many thanks!
Hi again! Your 11 and 14 year olds will indeed have problems (cf. the "Schooling" thread in the FAQs). Not only from the language point of view, but they would be thrown in at the deep end with no French culture behind them. French pupils take the Brevet at 14 (equivalent to O-Levels) and a Pass is necessary to go up to Lycée.
Home schooling is "tolerated" in France, but you'd have to follow the French Curriculum, as there are Inspections, and if the child doesn't have the correct level for his age, he'll be sent to a State School. 11 is in fact also a bad age for a foreign child to start schooling in France and you might consider his doing last year Primaire to pick up some French and French Culture, make friends, and get used to the French System, before going up to Collège.
The schooling issue alone (not to mention the Statut of your adult child) should give you food for thought!
And I can't insist too much on the "Partner Status" in France if you intend to buy property jointly. And the French Inheritance Laws - it's none of our business, but it would be even more complicated if your partner isn't the father of all your children. Please read the relevant threads in the FAQs!!
Hope all of this is useful!!
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Old Aug 14th 2017, 1:11 pm
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Default Re: Start of our Journey to France - Locations?

Thank you so much for your replies. So much food for thought.

I should have explained that because my 14 year old is due to start her GCSEs we had decided to plan for the move spring 2019 when she has completed this stage of her studies. This in itself means that we then have to consider where she could then go to complete her education. Is schooling compulsory in France after 16? I am then not sure if this is also a terrible time to move my 11 year old who will then be 13 and one year away from starting his IGCSE studies. I have questioned whether I am being selfish even considering moving until after the children have finished their education but I don't want it to become one of those plans that you always find a reason to put on hold! Any thoughts?

By delaying the actual physical move until spring 2019, it means we have the next 12 months to find the right place to settle and also to get some more French under our belts! I can get by with day to day life but as soon as conversation strays from shopping, weather etc my knowledge is limited. Thanks for the tip Petitefrancaise about Alliance Francaise. I will have a look.

Thank you DMU regarding the partner status . I had started to read about that and can see that it is something we need to sort out. I will take a look at all of the threads on there.

My employment status is going to be interesting! For some reason I had thought maybe I would be paid grosse and then would declare my earnings on my tax return in France. It would be no problem for me to become self-employed for the company though if this made it easier. It is something I need to investigate and I am not ready to start talking to my employer about the options quite yet.

It is very likely that my partner could carry on with his current company as a consultant or similar, but he would rather take a position locally at any level, if it meant being able to work in France. He doesn't necessarily want the same type of position, as that could put us back where we are now in terms of working every hour of the day and that defeats one of our reasons for moving.

I welcome any other thoughts about anything I have mentioned. I need to know the reality of what this means as I don't want to go into it blindly. I also appreciate it seems like a long time before we move, but time seems to fly and it is going to take a while to find the right place, sort out jobs etc. Any help at this stage might save me wasting time later! Thank you so much for taking the time to help.
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Old Aug 14th 2017, 4:11 pm
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Default Re: Start of our Journey to France - Locations?

It always worries me a bit when people say "we have decided to move the family to France" and it then becomes clear that they haven't actually researched the most important factors like how social security and healthcare works when you move from one EU state to another... so it's good that you have time ahead of you to plan properly.

To play devil's advocate: if I've understood correctly, you both have good jobs and a settled if hectic life in the UK, and you're moving to France to make life easier. Presumably you're thinking long term here because moving countries can be stressful, and with jobs to find for the two of you, four kids to get settled and a new life to set up from scratch in a foreign language. I suspect that initially at least it's not going to feel a lot easier at all.

To help you start getting your head round the social security situation, URSSAF has issued a useful document in English to explain the implications and obligations of living and working in France for an employer in another country:
https://www.urssaf.fr/portail/files/...3%A8re%20E.pdf

and from the UK side:
https://www.gov.uk/national-insurance-if-you-go-abroad

There is also the "umbrella company or portage salarial option, one company offering this service is http://www.freelanceinfrance.com/.

You need to bear in mind that just like in the UK, France takes a dim view of people who claim to be self-employed when i,n fact according the deciding criteria they are an employee; this is classed as salariat déguisé (concealed employment). Doesn't stop people doing it, either out of happy ignorance or out of desperation but anyone who is paid a regular salary is on thin ice if anyone decided to check, since no genuinely self-employed person earns exactly the same amount month in month out. To be fair contôles are very rare, but wouldn't be pleasant. The UK criteria for self-employment are here https://www.gov.uk/employment-status...yed-contractor, in France it's slightly different - URSSAF document is here but they haven't done this one in English AFAIK http://tarn.franceolympique.com/tarn...et_salarie.pdf

Sorry if I sound like a party pooper but I hope the links are useful. Moving to live in France if you still need to work isn't just about picking a nice house in a nice spot - that's fine if you're retirees or buying a holiday home, but if you're still economically active you need to understand the nuts and bolts and approach the move more practially. IMHO at least.

Last edited by EuroTrash; Aug 14th 2017 at 4:13 pm.
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Old Aug 14th 2017, 6:00 pm
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Default Re: Start of our Journey to France - Locations?

Thank you Eurotrash.

I am very much a nuts and bolts person which is why I am here. There is so much to consider and you don't sound like a party pooper at all. I would much rather have all of the information and I do realise that at the moment I am only just scratching the surface!

You are correct in what you say about our circumstances but the amount that my partner currently works is just not good for him or any of us. We are thinking long term which is why I would like to get the location right. It would be so easy to choose one of the amazing looking properties out in the country, but we need more than that as a family to make it work.

I completely understand what you are saying about the issues with self employment, I read about equal payments on one of the other threads. Most of my colleagues are self employed though so the change over would be reasonable although a little more annoying for me! I will definitely read through the links later tonight, they look really useful.

I have read a little about the healthcare system and also looked at property/land tax. Although I understand that there are two taxes, I have not looked at this thoroughly yet. I am presuming that large houses in the country 'with Gite attached' will attract a lot higher tax than 'sensible family home'? Is the amount charged generally based on the size of the property or does the location also have an impact? e.g big house in country compared with smaller house but in a town? One house listed for sale actually detailed the taxes being currently charged, which was quite a surprise but very useful to see how much we could have to pay!

I am very glad of the advice so far, I would love to hear any further thoughts.
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Old Aug 14th 2017, 7:11 pm
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Default Re: Start of our Journey to France - Locations?

Some excellent advise here so far.
The first thing that came to my mind also was the initial comment by Cyrian, 'Would your employer be prepared to pay French social charges?' In my experience it's rare that they are aware of the issue. Where one is on contractual detachment from a UK employer who has a recognised presence in France there should be no problem - this being the case with myself for 15+ years, where contractual issues, social charges, tax queries etc were all covered at source.
The 2nd point that gave me concern were your 11 & 15 year olds. Again speaking from experience, difficult, delicate age to up-root children. An international school may be the answer, and you may want to give Toulouse and the surrounding area some thoughts.

Thirdly picking up on ET's excellent comments, regarding concealed employment, "To be fair contrôles are very rare", they are in fact becoming more and more frequent. When the URSSAF carries out a control for disguised wage-earners, they look for a number of 'clues'.
Among these indices are the regular payment of the benefit (fixed date and always the same amount). Working on the spot is also a clue, using the client's equipment or having fixed schedules and holidays imposed.
The sum of several indices ferquently leads them to the conclusion that it is in all probability disguised wage-labor.
Caution is the watchword, and also a huge amount of research before embarking on a new life in France. Care-free holiday(s), and living in France full time are as different as calcaire & camembert.....

Last edited by Tweedpipe; Aug 14th 2017 at 7:25 pm.
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Old Aug 14th 2017, 7:13 pm
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Default Re: Start of our Journey to France - Locations?

Property taxes are set by the commune. So you could have two identical properties but in different communes, the taxes for one could be three or four times higher than for the other. The tax is calculated on a complicated formula that's beyond most people's comprehension - notional rental value, which is in turn based on surface area, location, number of bathrooms and washbasins, general state of repair, local amenities etc - but the base rate for the calculation is set by the commune each year as part of their annual budgeting exercise. As a rule of thumb, a prosperous commune with plenty of thriving businesses, a low proportion of residents on benefits and low communal debt, or alternatively a tiny village that doesn't provide many amenities so can operate on a low budget, will have relatively low tax. A large town that has to provide services such as street lighting, highway maintenance etc but is quite poor with lots of empty shops and low income families may have to set a base rate 2 or 3 times higher to balance its books. If a commune has exceptional expenditure one year - eg installing new infrastructure - the tax might have to be set higher for a couple of years.

So you really do need to find out the taxes for each individual property.
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Old Aug 14th 2017, 7:13 pm
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Default Re: Start of our Journey to France - Locations?

Deleted. So good I said it twice.
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Old Aug 14th 2017, 10:06 pm
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Default Re: Start of our Journey to France - Locations?

Such fabulous information and advice! Thank you so much.

Based on what you have said Tweedpipe, it sounds like my self employment would be ok, but still need to read through the links from Eurotrash. Based on the old way I was paid, it was quite variable with higher and lower paid months and I can take holiday when I like. We do always pay on the same date though.

If only life really was like our holidays. I think I would just end up bored though after a while!

I will have a look at the Toulouse area for schools. That certainly gives me a starting point. I agree, it is a pretty awful time to move the children, if anything stops me from making the move, it will be this. I am certain I can handle the rest, but I don't want to mess their lives up!

Thank you Eurotrash for the info on taxes. That makes sense and I will make certain to ask when we get to that stage. The two taxes on the house I was looking at was over 4000 Euros. Is that normal? It seemed like a lot to me, but I am getting used to the idea that we need to expect to pay quite a bit in taxes etc.

Thanks again!
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Old Aug 15th 2017, 5:51 am
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Default Re: Start of our Journey to France - Locations?

Originally Posted by Frenchbread
Based on what you have said Tweedpipe, it sounds like my self employment would be ok
Thanks again!
I think Tweedpipe was saying that this is one of the main giveaways that makes salariat déguisé easy to spot, not that this is one of the criteria as such, which is rather different
In France the distinction hinges on the level of subordination and dependence, ie do you have your own business distinct from your employer's/client's. Factors like: does one client/employer monopolise your working time; does your business prosper as a direct result of their business prospering, or if they went bust would you still have a viable business; do you set your own fees or does the client/employer decide the remuneration. Under French law, if URSSAF suspects salariat déguisé then the onus is on you to prove that it genuine freelance activity, rather than on URSSAF to prove it isn't, so these are the kind of thing you would need to demonstrate. It's rare for a "freelancer" with only one "client" to be genuine, but it's not impossible. There was a high profile case about 5 years ago when Acadomia, one of France's leading tutoring organisations, was fined heavily for using freelance tutors.
https://www.challenges.fr/entreprise...repreneur_1007

On property taxes, 4k sounds a bit higher than average, but there is no "normal", it is what it is. Can be from a few hundred to many thousands, depending on commune. Macron is talking about abolishing taxe d'habitation for low to low-average earning households, but this is likely to have the effect of raising it very significantly for the top-average to high earning households who still pay it, since local budgets will still have to balance and it's hard to see the state making good the difference in full. I think it's fair to say that taxes in general tend to come and go in France more than they do in the UK, sometimes an announcement comes as a nice surprise and sometimes it means you'll have to dig deeper than you did last year. But it's a fact that France is a higher taxed country than the UK. Tax liberation day in France this year was July 24th, in the UK it was June 2nd. In recent years France has consistently been the latest of all EU countries but this year Belgium was even later. Let's see what other bright ideas Macron can come up with.
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Old Aug 15th 2017, 10:55 am
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Default Re: Start of our Journey to France - Locations?

Ok, thank you. I can see how this could be a problem then. I still haven't had a chance to read the links as worked until late last night but hoping to finish at a sensible time this evening. I will have to put a lot of thought in to this as I had hoped that my job would be thing that kept us going until my partner got sorted.

I don't mind paying higher taxes than UK if the system is fair. As long as we know what to expect it will help us work out what is needed.
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