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Old Nov 8th 2017, 9:33 am   #1
Garble 
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Default Income tax calc - reliable info needed quick please!

Hi,

So I'm looking at job offers to take before moving to France, and I have found onilne tax calculators that are very simple and don't consider marital status etc but at least it gives me a reasonabable 'result'.
I've also come across tax bracket tables, where a 26k gross salary will be taxed at 14%, but then the next bracket is 30%!! This seems extreme and doesnt correlate with the online calcs.
Two offers I have on the table give 26K and the other 29k. According to the online tables, the 29k would net less than the 26k which sounds wrong but the online calcs seem too simplistic to be right (although they are accurate enough for other countries I have lived in)...

Can anyone point me to reliable info? Or better yet give me a rough amount as to what I can expect to pay?
I asked the employers, for the 29K I got a rough number of netting 23k (which doesnt match either online source) and the 26k employer had to check and didnt get back to me yet.

It would be full time employment, 1 child, partner in PACs.

Sorry if this has been answered, I've searched through backlog of a few years posts and didn't find anything relivant...

Help!
Merci
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Old Nov 8th 2017, 10:40 am   #2
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Default Re: Income tax calc - reliable info needed quick please!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garble View Post
Hi,

So I'm looking at job offers to take before moving to France, and I have found onilne tax calculators that are very simple and don't consider marital status etc but at least it gives me a reasonabable 'result'.
I've also come across tax bracket tables, where a 26k gross salary will be taxed at 14%, but then the next bracket is 30%!! This seems extreme and doesnt correlate with the online calcs.
Two offers I have on the table give 26K and the other 29k. According to the online tables, the 29k would net less than the 26k which sounds wrong but the online calcs seem too simplistic to be right (although they are accurate enough for other countries I have lived in)...

Can anyone point me to reliable info? Or better yet give me a rough amount as to what I can expect to pay?
I asked the employers, for the 29K I got a rough number of netting 23k (which doesnt match either online source) and the 26k employer had to check and didnt get back to me yet.

It would be full time employment, 1 child, partner in PACs.

Sorry if this has been answered, I've searched through backlog of a few years posts and didn't find anything relivant...

Help!
Merci
Sorry I can't help on the Income Tax figures, but remember that PAYE doesn't exist (yet) and you pay your Impôts the following year after having sent in your Déclaration de Revenus for the previous year. One of many French quirks...
The "net" figures correspond to your take-home salary after the social charges have been deducted. Maybe the 29K offer is for a job as "cadre" and you'd additionally pay into at least one "caisse des cadres" for your future pension?
Some one more mathematically minded will come along with the Income Tax figures!
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Old Nov 8th 2017, 10:48 am   #3
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Default Re: Income tax calc - reliable info needed quick please!

The French system is WAY too complicated for the simple on-line calculators, especially if they are generic and claim to cover a number of countries.

In very rough terms, I would calculate as follows:

Social charges - this will eat up about 25% of gross pay to cover the various healthcare, unemployment benefits, pension contributions and a host of other items which fill up my A4 payslip every month. So for 26k€ this will leave you with about 19.5k€ net.

Income tax - take what is left (19.5k€) and divide by 2.5 (this being the number of "parts" in your household made up of 2 adults and 1 child). Since this is less than the zero tax rate allowance of just under 10k€ you will not be liable for income tax. If you were, you would calculate based on the 14% and 30% (all the way up to 45% if you earn enough) and then multiply back by 2.5 to get the tax payable - plus or minus the various credits that might be applicable. You might be elegible for some low income credits but I don't know anything about these, someone else might be able to advise. I have assumed there is no other income from in to the household such as spouse salary, rental or investment incomes.

Hope this helps.
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Old Nov 8th 2017, 10:53 am   #4
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Default Re: Income tax calc - reliable info needed quick please!

Forgot to add, as DMU says, social charges are deducted at source while income tax is to be paid the following year after completing your tax forms. This is changing though and income tax is going to a PAYE system starting 2019 (if they don't push it back again).

Check if the quoted salary is gross or net - often they quote net monthly after deduction of social charges which makes a big difference. There is often a 13th month payment, which might or might not be included in the monthly or annual figure quoted.
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Old Nov 8th 2017, 10:57 am   #5
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Default Re: Income tax calc - reliable info needed quick please!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garble View Post
Hi,

So I'm looking at job offers to take before moving to France, and I have found onilne tax calculators that are very simple and don't consider marital status etc but at least it gives me a reasonabable 'result'.
Since French tax is calculated per household, I don't see how a calculator that doesn't consider marital status can give even a reasonable result.

I could offer advice but it might be wrong, because I only have the same working knowledge of the French tax system as the average man-in-the-street in France, and sometimes we get surprises with our tax bills. So I would not dare to offer well-meaning advice knowing that you're going to base your future on it. All the information on the French tax system is accessible online. Find what allowances you'd be entitled to, work out your RFR (total taxable household income), work out your family quotient, look at the barèmes (sliding tax rates), do the sums and there's your answer.
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Old Nov 8th 2017, 11:07 am   #6
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Default Re: Income tax calc - reliable info needed quick please!

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Originally Posted by EuroTrash View Post
Since French tax is calculated per household, I don't see how a calculator that doesn't consider marital status can give even a reasonable result.

I could offer advice but it might be wrong, because I only have the same working knowledge of the French tax system as the average man-in-the-street in France, and sometimes we get surprises with our tax bills. So I would not dare to offer well-meaning advice knowing that you're going to base your future on it. All the information on the French tax system is accessible online. Find what allowances you'd be entitled to, work out your RFR (total taxable household income), work out your family quotient, look at the barèmes (sliding tax rates), do the sums and there's your answer.

Ah ok, then it's even more complicated than it seems...
Looks like I'll have to embark on a research project... Thanks!
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Old Nov 8th 2017, 11:10 am   #7
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Default Re: Income tax calc - reliable info needed quick please!

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmu View Post
One of many French quirks...)
Yes, this looks like the start of a complicated adventure...
I was aware that individuals had to file taxes themselves, like in the US. Hopefully they'll get simplified PAYE something like I'm used to in Spain/UK/Ireland in my lifetime...

Thanks!
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Old Nov 8th 2017, 11:16 am   #8
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Default Re: Income tax calc - reliable info needed quick please!

Quote:
Originally Posted by south_bound View Post
...

Social charges - this will eat up about 25% of gross pay ...

Income tax - ... calculate based on the 14% and 30% ...
... You might be elegible for some low income credits /spouse salary, rental or investment incomes....

Hope this helps.
That helps a lot, and it's starting to make sense as I didn't realise the 14%/30% tax table was only applicable after this Social charge (and on 10k +)
As it seems, I'd fall below this 10k Income tax threshold so I'd not need worry about that for now (no other incomes in household, partner is studying).

Are the other taxes asides Social charges significant? Would I see more than <5% difference in net if anything more is applicable?

Thanks a mil!
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Old Nov 8th 2017, 11:25 am   #9
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Default Re: Income tax calc - reliable info needed quick please!

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Originally Posted by Garble View Post
Ah ok, then it's even more complicated than it seems...
Looks like I'll have to embark on a research project... Thanks!
Southbound's advice won't be far off the mark.

There's maybe a few details like I think a couple of percent of your social contributions count towards taxable income, and you may be able to claim allowances for travelling to work etc.

You would also have to pay taxe d'habitation on the home you live in, and also taxe foncières if you buy a property. Taxe d'habitation varies wildly according to where you live, but for French taxpayers it is also related to income. So since you'll be on a low income your taxe d'hab bill shouldn't be too high. French taxes work on a calendar year basis, you are liable for the full year's taxe d'hab on the property where you lived on 1st Jan. You declare your income for the previous year in May, and the taxe d'hab bill for the year is sent out at the end of that year based on your previous year's income. So depending on exactly when you move, you may be charged the full rate for your first year on the basis that you weren't a French taxpayer the previous year.
If that makes any sense, I don't think I explained it very well
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Old Nov 8th 2017, 11:31 am   #10
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Default Re: Income tax calc - reliable info needed quick please!

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Originally Posted by EuroTrash View Post
...claim allowances for travelling to work etc.

...you are liable for the full year's taxe d'hab on the property where you lived on 1st Jan. You declare your income for the previous year in May, and the taxe d'hab bill for the year is sent out at the end of that year based on your previous year's income. So depending on exactly when you move, you may be charged the full rate for your first year on the basis that you weren't a French taxpayer the previous year...
Thanks!
I see, realistically it will be a Jan start. But if the taxes are based on previous year's FR salary+residence, I won't have to pay until end of 2018/May 2019?

Quote:
Originally Posted by EuroTrash View Post
...you may be charged the full rate for your first year on the basis that you weren't a French taxpayer the previous year...
Or do they charge in advance?


Thanks for all the help
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Old Nov 8th 2017, 11:53 am   #11
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Default Re: Income tax calc - reliable info needed quick please!

If you get the keys after 1st Jan 2018 your first taxe d'hab bill will arrive at the end of 2019, about this time of year in fact - the bills for this year have arrived and payment is due shortly.

But if you have the keys on 1st Jan 2018 you have to pay for 2018. The difference is that if you're not classed as a French taxpayer for the year in question you don't get any income-related reductions, you have to pay taxe d'habitation at the full rate.

The ideal situation is to move in on Jan 2nd and move out on Dec 30th trouble is, the incoming and outgoing tenants all have the same idea...

Last edited by EuroTrash; Nov 8th 2017 at 11:57 am.
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Old Nov 8th 2017, 12:23 pm   #12
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Default Re: Income tax calc - reliable info needed quick please!

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Originally Posted by EuroTrash View Post
The ideal situation is to move in on Jan 2nd and move out on Dec 30th trouble is, the incoming and outgoing tenants all have the same idea...
Oh wow, thanks for the tip!
Just so I'm clear, moving out on 30th Dec still means I have to pay tax on that property, right? Not sure the benefit of this part.

Thanks again!
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Old Nov 8th 2017, 12:31 pm   #13
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Default Re: Income tax calc - reliable info needed quick please!

If you're there on 1st Jan of year N and you move out on 30 Dec (or before) of year N then you are liable for the tax for year N.
If you're there on 1st Jan of year N and you move out on 2nd Jan of year N+1, then you are liable for the tax for Year N and also for year N+1.
If you move in on 2nd Jan (or after) of year N and move out on 30th Dec (or before) of year N, you are liable for no taxe d'habitation.
Liability for this tax is based on a snapshot of the situation on 1st Jan of the calendar year in question..
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Old Nov 8th 2017, 12:39 pm   #14
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Default Re: Income tax calc - reliable info needed quick please!

Quote:
Originally Posted by EuroTrash View Post
...
If you move in on 2nd Jan (or after) of year N and move out on 30th Dec (or before) of year N, you are liable for no taxe d'habitation. ...

Thanks for clearing that up! Good time of year to be property hunting then.

Does the landlord have any motivation in when people come and go for similar tax reasons (so asides the obvious trying to keep people this time of year)?
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Old Nov 8th 2017, 12:41 pm   #15
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Default Re: Income tax calc - reliable info needed quick please!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garble View Post
That helps a lot, and it's starting to make sense as I didn't realise the 14%/30% tax table was only applicable after this Social charge (and on 10k +)
As it seems, I'd fall below this 10k Income tax threshold so I'd not need worry about that for now (no other incomes in household, partner is studying).

Are the other taxes asides Social charges significant? Would I see more than <5% difference in net if anything more is applicable?

Thanks a mil!
There are plenty of other ways the state manages to relieve you of the cash you have left over from your pay. The main ones are local property taxes - taxe foncier and taxe d'habitation as mentioned above. These bills come a month apart so that you pay income tax (if required) in September, foncier (for property owners) in October and habitation in November. To be fair, after the first year you pay the income tax in installments based on the previous year's income, with the final payment in September to reach the right overall amount.

Even if you are not liable for income tax, you still have to file a tax return in May for the previous calendar year so you will get used to doing plenty of paperwork! They then use these figures to calculate all sorts of other things like taxe habitation, child and other benefits, childcare and activity costs etc through something called a Quotient familial. The more you know, the more you realise you don't know!
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