Go Back   British Expats / Living & Moving Abroad / Europe / France

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old Oct 28th 2017, 5:16 pm   #1
Just Joined
 
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 15
CorinnaM is an unknown quantity at this point
Default How much tax and contributions?

I just made a calculation based on the information I could glean from the internet.

Based on an income of 50.000 Euros you would pay 50% in income tax, social contribution tax and house tax in France. Add to that that living expenses are 10% higher than in the UK.

In the UK I pay roughly 30% - a hugh difference.

Am I right?

Would anybody here divulge some information of how many percent of their income gets actually deducted? (I know it is difficult to compare but I would really appreciate some real-life numbers)
CorinnaM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Oct 28th 2017, 5:28 pm   #2
dmu Female
Lost in BE Cyberspace
 
Joined: Apr 2008
Location: Hérault (34)
Posts: 6,430
dmu has a reputation beyond reputedmu has a reputation beyond reputedmu has a reputation beyond reputedmu has a reputation beyond reputedmu has a reputation beyond reputedmu has a reputation beyond reputedmu has a reputation beyond reputedmu has a reputation beyond reputedmu has a reputation beyond reputedmu has a reputation beyond reputedmu has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: How much tax and contributions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CorinnaM View Post
I just made a calculation based on the information I could glean from the internet.

Based on an income of 50.000 Euros you would pay 50% in income tax, social contribution tax and house tax in France. Add to that that living expenses are 10% higher than in the UK.

In the UK I pay roughly 30% - a hugh difference.

Am I right?

Would anybody here divulge some information of how many percent of their income gets actually deducted? (I know it is difficult to compare but I would really appreciate some real-life numbers)
Hi, I'm hopeless at figures, so can't help, but "house tax" (Taxe Foncière & Taxe d'Habitation) has nothing to do with your income. The former is a Property Tax which is based on the "rentable value" of the property that you own, and the latter is an Occupancy Tax which you pay on the dwelling where you live, whether you own it or are renting. Low-income households are exempt, but with the income that you mention, you'll pay it. Both depend on where you'll be living and type of dwelling, and it's impossible to give a figure.
Some one with a mathematical mind and in the know will come along with the Tax and Social Security percentages.
dmu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Oct 28th 2017, 5:40 pm   #3
Born again atheist
Premium Member
 
Novocastrian's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2005
Location: Europe (to be specified).
Posts: 29,082
Novocastrian has a reputation beyond reputeNovocastrian has a reputation beyond reputeNovocastrian has a reputation beyond reputeNovocastrian has a reputation beyond reputeNovocastrian has a reputation beyond reputeNovocastrian has a reputation beyond reputeNovocastrian has a reputation beyond reputeNovocastrian has a reputation beyond reputeNovocastrian has a reputation beyond reputeNovocastrian has a reputation beyond reputeNovocastrian has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: How much tax and contributions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CorinnaM View Post
I just made a calculation based on the information I could glean from the internet.

Based on an income of 50.000 Euros you would pay 50% in income tax, social contribution tax and house tax in France. Add to that that living expenses are 10% higher than in the UK.

In the UK I pay roughly 30% - a hugh difference.

Am I right?

Would anybody here divulge some information of how many percent of their income gets actually deducted? (I know it is difficult to compare but I would really appreciate some real-life numbers)
I can't comment on the income tax and social contributions and DMU has already clarified the housing taxes.

But we live about half the year in France and half in the UK. (We're careful to remain tax residents in the UK).

Comparing living costs between countries is a dubious venture. In our particular circumstance, we find France to be cheaper. I'm comparing Newcastle with a small town in Normandy. If we lived in Paris it would be a bit different.

Where do you live now and where are you planning to live in France?
__________________
Pendelfahrer zwischen Frankreich und England.
Novocastrian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Oct 28th 2017, 5:57 pm   #4
Just Joined
 
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 15
CorinnaM is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: How much tax and contributions?

Novocastrian, living only half the year in France is our plan B. We live here in Devon and would want to buy a second home in the Pyrennees - south to south (you do north to north

I am interested how you do that? We are afraid of burglaries when leaving the houses empty for so long. Are you bothered about that? Are there any other problems to be aware of?

By the way, I found a map which shows a European comparison of contributions and my own calculations were spot on with an income of 50.000. 30% in the UK and 50 % in France
CorinnaM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Oct 28th 2017, 6:04 pm   #5
BE Forum Addict
 
Joined: Jan 2012
Location: Dépt 61
Posts: 3,036
EuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: How much tax and contributions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CorinnaM View Post
I just made a calculation based on the information I could glean from the internet.

Based on an income of 50.000 Euros you would pay 50% in income tax, social contribution tax and house tax in France.
I think that might be a bit optimistic, but there are a lot of variables. For instance if you're self employed which I think you mentioned in another thread, your social security cotisations will vary significantly depending how you set your business up, which is why it's so important to choose the structure that best suits your circumstances. But as a rule of thumb, social contributions are very roughly around 45% of profit, or 25% of turnover for prof lib, a bit less for artisans and a lot less (15%?) for commercial activities - which is supposed on average to work out at equivalent to 45% of profit in each case.

Income tax isn't bad at all unless you're a high earner, probably less than the UK - certainly for me it is.

House taxes depend entirely where you live, each commune sets its own rates, can be anywhere from a few hundred to several thousand for a similar property in different communes. This might change soon because Macron has **plans**.

Then there's healthcare top up, if you decide it's a good idea, since state healthcare only reimburses around 70% of most medical costs

You shouldn't try to compare isolated elements with the UK really, it's a different economy. In the UK the biggie is house prices but NHS treatment is free, in France property is comparatively cheap but it's the social charges and healthcare that cost. One way and another I think it works out roughly the same - it's balanced so that people can afford to live, though the balance is achieved differently. FWIW I was self employed in the UK before I moved here, and I had to increase my fees significantly in order to reach the same level of profit that I had in the UK. But again, I was able to do this because my competitors also charge more in France, they have to, so the market accepts it. However it did mean shifting to a French client base, I could no longer compete in the UK market.

I hope this is helpful and sufficiently relevant to the question asked

Last edited by EuroTrash; Oct 28th 2017 at 6:13 pm.
EuroTrash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Oct 28th 2017, 6:11 pm   #6
BE Forum Addict
 
Joined: Jan 2012
Location: Dépt 61
Posts: 3,036
EuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: How much tax and contributions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CorinnaM View Post
living only half the year in France is our plan B. We live here in Devon and would want to buy a second home in the Pyrennees - south to south (you do north to north
(
I believe Novo is retired, aren't you Novo?

Split residency when you're working can get a tad complicated as regards social security and tax obligations, and if you only have British passports (can't remember what you said on the other thread) it may get quite a lot more complicated post Brexit. As a "visitor" you are not supposed to work and earn money from your "holiday home". Suggest you research portable healthcare within the EU and the documents you need in order to work France whilst still covered by UK social security (portable health document A1). Could be wrong but I think that under the current draft Brexit agreement, UK workers who hold an A1 at the time of exit will keep them but the UK won't issue any new ones.
EuroTrash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Oct 28th 2017, 6:12 pm   #7
Born again atheist
Premium Member
 
Novocastrian's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2005
Location: Europe (to be specified).
Posts: 29,082
Novocastrian has a reputation beyond reputeNovocastrian has a reputation beyond reputeNovocastrian has a reputation beyond reputeNovocastrian has a reputation beyond reputeNovocastrian has a reputation beyond reputeNovocastrian has a reputation beyond reputeNovocastrian has a reputation beyond reputeNovocastrian has a reputation beyond reputeNovocastrian has a reputation beyond reputeNovocastrian has a reputation beyond reputeNovocastrian has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: How much tax and contributions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CorinnaM View Post
Novocastrian, living only half the year in France is our plan B. We live here in Devon and would want to buy a second home in the Pyrennees - south to south (you do north to north

I am interested how you do that? We are afraid of burglaries when leaving the houses empty for so long. Are you bothered about that? Are there any other problems to be aware of?
We're retired now but have owned the house in Normandy (from which I'm typing) for 10 years. We lived in Canada when we bought it.

After my retirement, we bought an apartment/condominium in Newcastle 2 years ago, which is a perfect "lock-up-and-leave". No issues there.

Because we've been intermittently living in the French house for a decade, we are known here. (Although the locals are still often confused as to whether we're British or Canadian: we are in fact both). The neighbours know when we're away and when we're here. We have no worries around criminality.

And we have robust metal volets .
__________________
Pendelfahrer zwischen Frankreich und England.
Novocastrian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Oct 28th 2017, 6:16 pm   #8
Just Joined
 
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 15
CorinnaM is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: How much tax and contributions?

thanks, both of you - I will start a new thread on split residency in a minute
CorinnaM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Oct 28th 2017, 6:17 pm   #9
BE Forum Addict
 
Joined: Jan 2012
Location: Dépt 61
Posts: 3,036
EuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond reputeEuroTrash has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: How much tax and contributions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Novocastrian View Post
And we have robust metal volets .
As long as the volets are more robust than the voleurs, no worries!
EuroTrash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Oct 29th 2017, 9:05 am   #10
JWL Male
Forum Regular
 
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 295
JWL has a reputation beyond reputeJWL has a reputation beyond reputeJWL has a reputation beyond reputeJWL has a reputation beyond reputeJWL has a reputation beyond reputeJWL has a reputation beyond reputeJWL has a reputation beyond reputeJWL has a reputation beyond reputeJWL has a reputation beyond reputeJWL has a reputation beyond reputeJWL has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: How much tax and contributions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Novocastrian View Post

And we have robust metal volets .
I've heard that French burglars have robust metal crowbars...
JWL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Oct 29th 2017, 2:08 pm   #11
vote to get Ian back
 
petitefrancaise's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 4,539
petitefrancaise has a reputation beyond reputepetitefrancaise has a reputation beyond reputepetitefrancaise has a reputation beyond reputepetitefrancaise has a reputation beyond reputepetitefrancaise has a reputation beyond reputepetitefrancaise has a reputation beyond reputepetitefrancaise has a reputation beyond reputepetitefrancaise has a reputation beyond reputepetitefrancaise has a reputation beyond reputepetitefrancaise has a reputation beyond reputepetitefrancaise has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: How much tax and contributions?

When we left our french house empty for a longish period, we could not get insurance without having a particular type of security system installed - activity triggered cameras/alarms connected to a 24 hour monitoring service and with 2 people nominated as local contacts who would also have the password and special key required to open the front door.
We lived in a very normal nice house in a very quiet lotissement too,ie close neighbours all around. Nice town with a very low crime rate. The house had nothing in it since we were waiting for it to sell.
How come you guys are managing it?
petitefrancaise is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Oct 29th 2017, 5:44 pm   #12
Born again atheist
Premium Member
 
Novocastrian's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2005
Location: Europe (to be specified).
Posts: 29,082
Novocastrian has a reputation beyond reputeNovocastrian has a reputation beyond reputeNovocastrian has a reputation beyond reputeNovocastrian has a reputation beyond reputeNovocastrian has a reputation beyond reputeNovocastrian has a reputation beyond reputeNovocastrian has a reputation beyond reputeNovocastrian has a reputation beyond reputeNovocastrian has a reputation beyond reputeNovocastrian has a reputation beyond reputeNovocastrian has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: How much tax and contributions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by petitefrancaise View Post
When we left our french house empty for a longish period, we could not get insurance without having a particular type of security system installed - activity triggered cameras/alarms connected to a 24 hour monitoring service and with 2 people nominated as local contacts who would also have the password and special key required to open the front door.
We lived in a very normal nice house in a very quiet lotissement too,ie close neighbours all around. Nice town with a very low crime rate. The house had nothing in it since we were waiting for it to sell.
How come you guys are managing it?
Sorry, missed this. No-one has raised such issues with us. Our house and car insurances are with AXA. They know our circumstances and haven't blinked an eyelid.
__________________
Pendelfahrer zwischen Frankreich und England.
Novocastrian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Oct 29th 2017, 5:47 pm   #13
Born again atheist
Premium Member
 
Novocastrian's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2005
Location: Europe (to be specified).
Posts: 29,082
Novocastrian has a reputation beyond reputeNovocastrian has a reputation beyond reputeNovocastrian has a reputation beyond reputeNovocastrian has a reputation beyond reputeNovocastrian has a reputation beyond reputeNovocastrian has a reputation beyond reputeNovocastrian has a reputation beyond reputeNovocastrian has a reputation beyond reputeNovocastrian has a reputation beyond reputeNovocastrian has a reputation beyond reputeNovocastrian has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: How much tax and contributions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JWL View Post
I've heard that French burglars have robust metal crowbars...
I haven't. I'll let you know if an incident occurs during this second decade of ownership.
__________________
Pendelfahrer zwischen Frankreich und England.
Novocastrian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Oct 29th 2017, 9:12 pm   #14
cyrian Male
BE Forum Addict
 
cyrian's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2009
Location: Scotland & Touraine [37]
Posts: 2,055
cyrian has a reputation beyond reputecyrian has a reputation beyond reputecyrian has a reputation beyond reputecyrian has a reputation beyond reputecyrian has a reputation beyond reputecyrian has a reputation beyond reputecyrian has a reputation beyond reputecyrian has a reputation beyond reputecyrian has a reputation beyond reputecyrian has a reputation beyond reputecyrian has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: How much tax and contributions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CorinnaM View Post
I just made a calculation based on the information I could glean from the internet.

Based on an income of 50.000 Euros you would pay 50% in income tax, social contribution tax and house tax in France. Add to that that living expenses are 10% higher than in the UK.

In the UK I pay roughly 30% - a hugh difference.

Am I right?

Would anybody here divulge some information of how many percent of their income gets actually deducted? (I know it is difficult to compare but I would really appreciate some real-life numbers)
Remember that taxation in France is per household and not per person therefore you have 2 x personal allowances
cyrian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Nov 1st 2017, 11:50 pm   #15
Just Joined
 
Joined: Oct 2017
Location: Pezenas, Herault
Posts: 4
Lavers69 is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: How much tax and contributions?

I can only speak from my own experience of having a SARL company in France (essentially a Limited company) and having closed that down and now running as an Auto-Entrpreneur (Self employed status). I agree with one of the earlier comments about Ex-Pats moaning about the bureaucracy and high charges but not bothering to find out the rules in the first place. That was certainly me!

Here is just a number of points I have learned
1.) In France, you need to think in reverse to the UK. Social charges (National Insurance) is the big cost around 35-45%, tax is the lower cost (10%-ish).
2.) SARL status is good if you need to protect your liabilities, etc. But if you are essentially a one man band it is like having a Rolls Royce when you only need a reliable run-around car. It is quite an expensive set up to run.
3.) Accountants - you need an accountant if you have a SARL. I was paying €150 per month. In retrospect, he was an excellent bookkeeper, but I wouldn't necessarily say that he ever gave any financial planning/business advice (which is what I would say an accountant should do). But if you don't ask the right questions then you can't expect good answers!
3.) I would recommend a SARL structure if you are anticipating your business to expand in the future (exponentially). The reason why I say that is because if you can retain some profit in the business and draw it down as dividends, then it does become an excellent structure because you don't pay the big costs (social charges) on dividends. This was where I came unstuck because I went through a messy house-build and I had to draw down virtually all my turnover as salary/profit.
4.) Social Charges - in my experience the social charges have averaged out at 45% of operating profit. Everyone who has run a business in France will have their war stories about the social charges. There are various bodies (RSI, CIPAV, URSAFF) which are responsible for collecting the social charges depending on your business registration/status. What you have to remember, especially if you are starting up is that the social charges is largely a predictive system. The body responsible for collecting them will predict (based on your Year 1 or Year 2 business results) what you need to pay in Year 3. The problem comes when you have a stellar couple of years, but then your revenue drops off. You will still have to pay out for the social charges, even if you are not earning. My experience of RSI, CIPAV, etc is that yes they are dangerously incompetent (they seem to almost make up the figures on the payment demands), but they are OK to deal with if you go back to them with actual annual reports, accountants figures.
5.) Starting out I would recommend an Auto-Entrepreneur status. The reason why I say that is because a.) it is quick to set up; b.) you always know where you stand - a simple 25%-ish deduction based on total revenue; c.) it is good if you have a low cost/expenses base; d.) if you don't earn you don't pay. The AE will get you into the French system. The earnings limits are about to double to around €60,000, but as one poster commented on another thread, the VAT (TVA) limits will remain at around €34,000 (so if you earn over this you will have to charge TVA). I don't know if that then means that you can reclaim back any TVA you have paid in connection with your business??
6.) As a summary point. You have to pay your taxes. They probably are slightly higher in France than the UK, but you are not living in the UK, you are living in France. I think tax was once described as the cost of having a civilized society and I think that this certainly rings true in France. You certainly see where most of the money is spent (hospitals, roads, etc). Running a business though, you have to decide if the cost in terms of the administration time and tax/charges is excessive or it is just the cost of doing business in France. Choosing the right structure for your business is therefore paramount.

The best bit of advice I can give you is to sign up with a website based up in the North of France called Starting a business in France (or something like that). The Woman that runs it knows her stuff and it is probably the best €150 you will ever spend.
Lavers69 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   British Expats / Living & Moving Abroad / Europe / France


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT. The time now is 12:48 am.


Powered by vBulletin: ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 1999-2010 BritishExpats.com