Damvillers

hi guys, I am hoping someone can help me as I'm going around in circles. I have a family here and I need to get us registered into the french social security system. However we are self employed so do not have an employer to do this. I think I need an e104 form, however this form was changed and I now have the right one but reading it it's more if I want to claim sick benefit which I don't I just want to register to ensure my child gets any help needed. Cheers in advance

EuroTrash

If you're self employed in France, you have to have a registered business in France with a siret number etc, and you pay healthcare cotisations according to whatever business regime you chose - either quarterly as a proportion of turnover if you register as auto entrepreneur, or annually and based on profits for some of the more complex regimes. This isn't optional, it's the law. Working unregistered and not paying cotisations or income tax is what is known as working on the black - don't even go there!

Get your business registered and your social security attestation will follow automatically.

(EDIT - I see you say 'we' are self employed so probably auto entrepreneur isn't an option for you, sorry only just spotted that.)

EDIT 2 - you don't say, but are you only in France temporarily? Otherwise how come you have an E104? If that's the case, you just need to go to your nearest CPAM office with your E104 and they'll sort it out for you. And ignore the first part of my post - but it would help if you gave a few details of your situation...

3rd and final edit - hmm, I see you asked the same question back in January, and you obviously didn't like it when I said the same thing then either...
http://britishexpats.com/forum/franc...urance-824867/
But sooner or later, if you want to get health cover for your family, you're either going to have to start paying into the French system, or do some very fancy footwork and hope that URSSAF is impressed with it too.

dmu

With all due respect, the OP should have sorted this out long ago.
Quite apart from any health problems and/or accidents that any family member might have, the toddler should be having all the compulsory vaccinations and regular check-ups that all French children have until they leave school. In fact all crêches and schools require their up-to-date Livret de Santé (whatever it's called nowadays) or foreign equivalent, at enrolment, and the Livret must be shown at each consultation, to be stamped by the practitioner.
My two were born in France and the Livrets were issued at birth. Some one will come along to say how they managed when arriving in France with young children...

EuroTrash

I agree DMU, on the face of it staying beneath the radar when you have a toddler seems more than a tad irresponsible to me, all due respect an' all and not knowing the OP's situation so who am I to judge. But assuming they really have moved to France, which one might assume they have from the fact that they said in another thread that they've re-registered their car here, why aren't they paying into the system? If they were they wouldn't be going round in circles and the the child will be covered as their dependent. If there's a reason why they think they don't have to pay in like everybody else, maybe if they tell us what it is, then we can try and help.

petitefrancaise

Have you been to your local social security office and asked for help? The E104 is specific to healthcare coverage and may not entitle you to a social security number. From looking at the info you have to take the E104 (or what ever supersedes it) to the "health insurance authority" where you work. In your case, France and CPAM. There is an advice line, in English, that you can call

ameli.fr - English speakers : your special Advice Line

If you have an S1 (is that what supersedes the E104?) you probably don't need a french social security number because you aren't paying into the french system. Who has asked you for the social security number?

.Aside from any other issues..
you can take your child to any doctor but if you aren't in the system you will pay the doctor directly for the appointment. You'll need to pay for any medicines. If you keep the feuilles de soins you're given you should be able to get these re-imbursed

You can get cheaper/free treatment for young children at the local PMI (protection maternelle et infantile) ask at your mairie or look it up online.

You ought to be able to request a livret de sante at the conseil general for your department, it's just a book where all the vaccinations and health care notes are listed. Just take it along to the doctor's and ask them to fill it in, you'll need this for your child going to maternelle/school/creche. I got this easily for my older children who weren't born in France.

If you are registered as self-employed and you aren't sure about your social security number then just go along to the social security office and ask them.

Damvillers

Um, not sure how to take some of these replies, really rather rude. but we are not working in the black, and i certainly am not irresponsible with my child. They have had their check and are actually in crèche. I have been seeing a doctor and paying I was just hoping for some advice. Thanks but no thanks. And sorry ET I have been very busy since January so didn't ignore your comment just forgot

EuroTrash

Sorry, no offence meant, but you have to admit that asking for advice without giving the background information doesn't help us to help you. We can't really advise if we don't know the starting point.

Working on the black simply means working outside the system. And since your problem seems to be that you're not inside the system therefore logically you must be outside of it, and since you say that you're working, well you can see why the assumption came about - one and one usually make two. There is no obvious reason why anybody who is paying their cotisations would not be in the social security system. I wasn't suggesting you were working on the black intentionally - when people don't understand the French rules, it's quite possible to end up in this position without intending to.

To take it from the top: if you're not on the black, that means you must be paying your NI/sécu contributions somewhere. Maybe you're paying them to the wrong place; you need to be paying them to your "competent state", which is usually but not always the country where you live and do the work. Here are 3 scenarios, see which fits.

Scenario 1: You're still paying NICs to the UK and the UK knows that you're living in France and agrees that it, the UK, is still your competent state. In that case it should have issued you with the form that used to be called a workers S1 but might have a different name now. You get this form, you take it to CPAM (it tells you on the back of the form exactly what to do with it), and CPAM registers you into the French social security system and issues your attestation. Problem solved.
Scenario 2: You're still paying NICs to the UK but you haven't told them that you've moved to France. In that case you need to tell them, and if they agree to cover you, then it's as per scenario 1. If they refuse, you need to start paying cotisations in France. Problem solved.
Scenarion 3: You're already paying cotisations in France and for some reason you haven't been sent your attestation. Normally it's sent automatically as soon as your business is set up. If it wasn't, you need to chase up whichever caisse it is that you're paying in to, and only you know which caisse that is.

These are the usual scenarios, I can't think of any more, so if there's something unusual about your situation and none of the above fits, and you want advice, I'm afraid you will have to give a few facts. Sorry but we're not mindreaders on here. We try to help, usually because people on forums helped us when we were newbies so we like to return the favour by helping other newbies - but when we spend our time and wear out what few little grey cells we have left trying to give people good advice, and it turns out to have been all time wasted because they ignore it or forget it and are too busy to say thank you or don't feel like saying thank you, well we do start wondering why we bother. Or at least I do, maybe it doesn't bother others.
Rant over.

EuroTrash

http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens...s/index_en.htm
Useful forms for social security rights

The form you should have been issued with if the UK has agreed to continue being your competent state is the S1 or E106. Is that the one you've got? If so, you need to give it to CPAM along with the other documents they need (keep a copy, because CPAM sometimes lose things) and they will take it from there.

EuroTrash

So in the unlikely but not impossible event of your child needing a major operation and aftercare costing thousands or even hundreds of thousands of euro, you can pay for that too can you? That, I guess, is what dmu was thinking of when she talked about being responsible.

dmu

I didn't actually use the word responsible, but that's what I was thinking of. And I did say "with all due respect", i.e. I wasn't being rude, just trying to put it nicely....
Anything can happen to any of the family - e.g. appendicitis, accident, ... Without a Carte Vitale you pay up-front for all consultations/treatments and may eventually get reimbursed later on from somewhere, by presenting the various Feuilles de Soins. If you have no healthcare insurance, you risk paying enormous bills....
As suggested, go along to your CPAM in person and enquire. If your status doesn't come under their jurisdiction, then they should point you in the right direction.
Good luck!

EuroTrash

Hands up - yes, sorry dmu, it was me that used that word and got up the poster's nose .
The thing is that cover won't necessarily be backdated. If you don't qualify for social security cover at the time when the expenses are incurred, ie if the date on the feuilles de soins precedes the date on your attestation that says when your entitlement started, you won't be reimbursed. That's why you need to sort it out asap.
Getting into the system is all about meeting criteria. CPAM can't put anybody onto their system until or unless they produce all the documents CPAM needs, to prove that CPAM's own particular criteria have been met. If the CPAM computer says 'no', personally I wouldn't be too hopeful of them being help much; in my experience, CPAM staff are only trained to deal with their own limited remit, they don't necessarily know how URSSAF and the rest of the system works. But as dmu says, Good Luck.

Damvillers

Hi,
Sorry I was a little cross this morning a 5am start with child. You are right without facts it's impossible to get the right help I just feel at my end of all of this.
Basically we are employed by a uk company, but we live and do the work in france. We currently are paid and NI contributions are still paid there. I have advised the tax office that we live in France but they have not mentioned anything except the 52 wk exemption rule as we don't commute.
We are going to become auto entrepreneur here in france as although the above is fine, I feel we must pay our taxes in the country we are in. This is in the process but is taking longer than anticipated.
On looking on some french sites I was advised I needed a e104 form to be able to get social security number. On calling the uk this form no longer exists but I now have the form CA3916 which replaces it. However this form asks allot about claiming sick benefit, but I don't want to claim benefits just need social security so I can then get CAF for my child too.

So that's all my info, seems a little confusing but certainly want to be here the correct way.
Thanks again ET and sorry for my outburst this morning....

Chatter Static

If you have only one child there will be no CAF money forthcoming as child benefit payments start with the birth of the second child.

EuroTrash

No worries, let's be friends again

The thing is, the French social security system is contributions based, not residence based. Simply living here isn't enough to make you eligible to join, and if you're not eligible they won't give you a social security number.

People become eligible via their employment or self-employment, or sometimes if they're early retirees by paying cotisations as a proportion of their unearned income.

The only other option is, in certain circumstances the NHS will continue being responsible for your healthcare, on the same basis as if you still lived in the UK and were just visiting. For that to happen you should have filled a form in and they should have either accepted or refused. If they agreed to cover you, they should have issued you with an S1. Then you wouldn't have to contribute to the French sécu system, because CPAM knows it can reclaim the cost of your healthcare from the NHS; that's that's what the S1 is, it's the UK's official confirmation to France that it wants you to receive healthcare in France and the UK will pick up the bill for it.

I suspect but couldn't say for sure that the UK hasn't agreed to keep covering you, because I think but am not sure that the E104 is what they issue when you are coming out of the NHS and going into another country's social security system. That's why I'm worried that you are without any cover at all, because you should be paying contributions in France but you aren't.

If a UK company employs somebody who lives and works in France, and no S1 has been issued, the UK company must register them with URSSAF as an employee - at which point you will be issued with a social security number - and start paying contributions to the French social security system. That's what French law says has to happen. The fact that the company is in the UK doesn't mean that they don't need to do this; it's where you live and work that counts, not where your employer is based. This is EU rules not just French rules. It may seem like hassle but it's necessary, firstly because if they don't then, as you've discovered, you won't get social security cover in France; and secondly, because there are penalties for not doing so, if it comes to light. The law is very simple and it says that if you live and work in France you have to pay social security contributions in France, unless you are covered by an S1 from another country; and if you don't, I'm afraid it can be classed as social security fraud. So I think you need regularise your situation as quickly as you can.

You can't rely on HMRC to sort it out for you, it's not their job to enforce French fiscal law or even to understand it. When you move to France you come under French law, and it's your responsibility to find out what the law requires you to do; it's also your employer's responsibility to find out what they need to do.

So that's social security, and then there's income tax which is a separate issue. Everyone who lives in France and has a taxable income has to submit an annual declaration to the fisc, so next May you'll have to fill in a French tax form and declare all your household's worldwide income, including earned income, bank interest etc, from the time you arrived in France up to 31 December 2014 (the French tax year is 1st Jan - 31st Dec). If you're receiving an income from a UK company, you'll have to declare it, and you should pay tax on that in France, not in the UK. The longer you keep paying tax in the wrong place and not paying any social ontributions, the more complicated it will be to disentangle it all, which eventually you will have to do.

Does this help at all?

dmu