cjm

.... very off topic this one, but I thought, share it and see what comes back. New dog in the house, over from UK, we have adopted via family bereavement. Existing dog a mild mannered Jack Russell (but not a cat lover). New dog, same race. Both unspeyed bitches. No breeding planned.
Problem. New dog not being consistent with house training. They also scrap a bit. Advice from dog person is new dog is trying to establish territory; competing. Hence the not house training. There's some other stuff (new dog not a cat lover and some concern she could kill) Any thoughts, advice most welcome; PM or here. Cheers.

Domino

my first thought is its territory! The new bitch is joining another dog's space and should be servile to what will be the (resident) Alpha Female.
Remember that you and OH (+any kids) will be part of the pack.

Yes they may be competing, but this is a problem with pack animals, especially when you bring in someone from the outside who has spent their life being the only dog. As to the house training problem - that is for you to take control of. the longer you let it go on the worse it will get. Establish routines, keep to them, enforce them. If that dog doesnt go to toilet on the walk then everyone stays out until they do.

if dog kills a cat surely that is a species thing but got to catch cat first.

we managed to take a similar sized dog from 3bed semi in uk to 3rd floor flat in Spain with I believe only one training incident, months after the move.
he still thinks we are weird expecting him to get into a cupboard to go outside. his only problem was crossing the gap between floor and lift, oh yes and when someone else tried to get into "his" cupboard.

hth

Tweedpipe

Just a quick reply as I have to dash in a moment.
You will almost always have one dog which is more domineering than another, and therefore will want to be leader of the 'pack'. This I believe is normal behavior and difficult (impossible?) to prevent.
The existing mild-mannered dog should soon accept this situation, although to see this happening is probably more disturbing to the owner than to the existing dog herself. But this doesn't mean that the new dog should be disrespectful to the owner, although like children they will certainly try and will run riot if allowed to. Be very firm but also let animal behaviour take it's natural course - within defined limits. You the owner must show the newcomer that you are the leader of the pack, and it's you who lays down the basic rules.
Difficult - especially at first - but try not to show preference to the existing dog as this will destabilize the newcomer.
Good luck.

Tweedpipe

I've just been reading a very interesting article. You may just have adopted real problems which cannot easily be solved.
In the article is a special note from terrier experts about keeping same sex dogs.
http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Con...P=A&A=2465&S=1

cjm

Many thanks to both of you. I have been on the UK Jack Russell site to try and learn more. There is good advice in the Vet's site Tweedpipe, so sharing with my wife who is currently in England.
Last night, fire was giving out good heat and I had put a pillow-based bed in front of it. After the girls swopped places for the centre position, later they both lay close together, enjoying the warmth and soft comfort under them.
A family member has said we need to think about the happiness of the new bitch coming into our family. Her welfare is important and her behaviour affects our original dog (they are both six years old). I am aware of the pack aspects, though to be honest, when you are close to your dogs and have affection for both, not always easy. Bit like having a troublesome child. They make you angry, but you love them nevertheless.
The second dog is being caged at night, on the basis that her overnight toilet issues (perhaps marking territory?) may be curbed if she has to sleep with it. I was out Saturday from 1pm, coming back at about 5.30. I did not use the cage. Everything was fine. I was prepared to find mess and had decided not to chide the dog; it was my experiment after all. But all was okay.
Today, too both to our beach; they both enjoy this and have independent interests as to what they find washed up (though rolling on a fish or crab is standard for both), it was good to see them running loose.
We have been advised to review progress after six months, but routine is a key factor as you have advised. Thanks for your posts. I will try and update here again.

Domino

Glad to hear she is starting to settle down.
Like us, they know that generally the route of least resistance is the easiest.
I am sure you can imagine the problems we had envisaged when the BH's ex summarily decided to give her their 2 bitches, border collie and pointer dalmation cross. We had only had a Norfolk terrior dog for about 5 months from a broken home.
There were initial niggles, but it settled down quite quickly, the girls seemed to understand they were entering his house.

Time and equal attention is probably all that is needed, but suggest some family members keep their noses out, unless they want to take her on themselves. We used to call our 3 "the kids" and thats what they are and it would be similar problems if you were to try to integrate 2 children. The new dog has had a big shock losing a loved one, thats hard for anyone.

Good luck, pse give them a Christmas treat from me

cjm

Will do. Lousy wet afternoon here, but they are lying with each other in front of the wood burner. Peace.

smithyandlisa

Hi cjm, just read your post and it gave me the chills. 2 years ago we bought an adorable toy poodle bitch, Poppy, here in France. We already have an incredibly affectionate lowchen/toy poodle, Chloe (5kg) who was 9 at the time. The two of them NEVER got on. Just as with your story, we couldn't house train the new one. They "bothered" one another constantly, and often the fights were aggressive. It was really upsetting. Poppy always slept in a cage at night or if we went out. When she had been with us for just 5 months, my husband was walking through the garden and saw her lying in the grass. he ran over to her and she died in his arms. The vet thought she had probably had a heart attack, but we'll never know.

We did masses of research both online, and in the real world, and of course, as we all know, you can read anything you want to, but the general consensus is that two bitches do not a happy household make. (OK guys, just confirms what you already know right?) Of course, there will be many of you with your perfect family of girls! Several months later we bought our little boy Zac. A toy poodle (3.5kg now) He was easily and very quickly house trained, and the two of them have been a great team from day one. We almost never see one without the other attached at the hip. They are sitting together looking out of the door as I am writing this. Chloe is a spayed female, and Zac was castrated at 7 months.

I hope yours turns out to be a happy family. Keep us posted.

cjm

Well, smithyandlisa, that certainly brought a lump to my throat and I should tell you that the new second bitch is called Poppy - we bought her originally for my father-in-law, (I touched on this briefly before) after he lost his wife. Poppy was just a pup and we fell in love with her. She was a smooth coat with sticky up ears. As a result we got our lady Bess, a rough coat. After my father-in-law's death we took Poppy, as we had always promised we would.
Since my last post Poppy has been caged at night and taken out just before we go to bed. We have no doubt she finds it tough to control timing of her motions, whereas Bess is totally opposite.
The girls seem to be settling, a bit. They have stopped fighting, though they compete for my and our affection/attention. We now feed them once only in the morning. Last night, by coincidence with your post, we left Poppy out of the cage; she was fine, but it's a small step.
We will persevere; we have agreed. It may never be total harmony, but we will settle for knowing enough to manage their needs.
Hope you all had a good Christmas, Happy New Year.

Etoile de Berger

I have four bitches in the house. One of 15, two midddle aged and one 6 months old and daughter of one of the middle ones. After making it absolutely clear that I would not put up with any fighting, growling, stalking or other nonsense, they have all found their corners and the only aggro is when the 6 month old demands attention from the older dog who of course wants a quiet life. She can snap at the young one because the latter needs to understand her place.
Bitches are notoriously..... bitchy.

Let's look at it from your new pack member's position. At her age most dogs are settled and are not taken from their familiar enviroinment. She has had the routines, uncompetitive affection and all her own smells for some time. Suddenly she is in a completely different place, unsure as to what to expect, another bitch to manage and the environment already smells of her and all sorts of different unfamiliar things. Routines don't exist anymore. You already have a bond with your original dog. Sometimes I am amazed that dogs in this position don't all have nervous breakdowns but amazingly they find coping mechanisms.

First I would spend time with just the new one. Make a bond with her but make it clear what your boundaries are. Some dogs respond to a quiet "no". Others need a tap on the nose. Whatever works, make it consistent.
BUT WHEN SHE IS RESPONDING OR DOING SOMETHING YOU APPROVE OF, PRAISE HER BY REPEATING THE COMMAND GENTLY AND LOVINGLY. For instance if she jumps up and you say "down", if she immediately downs, say and repeat "down" as if she is the best dog in the world. Caress her. Make it clear you are pleased because in the end, almost all dogs want to please you. You have already then estabished who is boss and that her job is to make you happy but that also benefits her.

Second I would stand for no nonsense from your established bitch. Unless you have a bitch who just will not accept a new one (not usual but it can happen) YOU are alpha and YOU decide who is in your pack. Follow the usual routine and as above, if the two square up to each other, make it clear it isn't acceptable. When they back off, use that tone of voice above again telling them they have "done it right" and that you are pleased. I use the word "back off" or "no" and give them BOTH a cuddle when they do (but not their heads together. That is a real intercanine challenge for each of them and in the heightened emotional states, they will once again go for each other.) Only when they are on their hind legs and really fighting have I ever used my foot to get them apart. The keep them apart and when they start to relax, (watch the shoulders) do the above. Praise what is good, no matter how small to start with. Every step in the right direction needs reinforcing.

Toilet training is a matter of routine. They come to know when their opportunity is going to happen and usually can wait until then. Your new one is so unsure about her place and timing that she doesn't have the mental energy to control herself PLUS may be hoping to carve some place out for herself by scent marking. (not only dogs do this). Let her outside a couple of times a morning especially and watch what she does.The minute she wees, gently (so you don't disturb her weeing) give the action a name ("weewees" in my house) and repeat it as above, approvingly and lovingly. Give her a caress if she is near but not if you aren't close at that very time or she will not associate the caress with the weeing. Soon she will wee on command (and ALWAYS praise her) and not otherwise. But you must give her ample opportunity to do it where you want. Remember that ROUTINE is everything followed by LOTS of praise when she does something right. That is the ONLY way she knows what is right and wrong in her new world and at the same time will come to see you as Alpha, making the rules.

Vying for your affection is normal. They want to be no 2 in the pack. (most favoured position). Give them both the same time and affection but watch for jealousy and manage it before it explodes. Try not to tell them off for wanting what is absolutely normal in dogs. Just manage it.

Finally give each dog a place of their own away from each other so they can retreat to it for peace (either theirs or more importantly, yours).That is usually their bed area so they know it isn't punuishment but just "time out".

Good luck.

cjm

Wow, that took some time to write. Thanks. I was due to respond yesterday, but got interrupted. Then it would have been a highly positive response ref our new dog, but Poppy messed last night and my OH discovered it in the dark!
So, back to the cage at night. Trying to instil a toilet habit is very uphill. We've both had dogs before and while I hear what you say, this lady is proving tough.
No doubt she has settled in pretty well. Dogs only play scrap when they sense they are being taken out for a walk. Early scrapping now not there.
We do fuss and congratulate the new dog when she goes out and wee's or poo's. She is much fitter, having lost weight with exercise and controlled diet (my dear FinL could never remember if he had fed her, so when she 'begged' he fed her again and as a sidebar to his diabetes he had poor eyesight and no sense of smell). Both dogs now get fed in the morning now. Poppy was doing well, she had been coming into our room at night to say she wanted to go out (despite having been out last thing) or during day went to door. All very good. Last night normal routine followed, but no alert during night, despite her having a poo last thing. And, this morning took her into garden and she had another poo.
They have been getting hide chews as treats, but now wondering if that is a factor in her habits.
She was shouted at by my OH and kept her distance, like she was aware.
We do fuss her, but she won't 'settle' when you invite her to sit on your lap or next to you. It's like she constantly wants attention.
I may have said before Poppy lost her left eye to cancer, but since coming to live with us her personal confidence has grown massively. Wasn't keen on the sea (near us), wouldn't go near low level water in a stream on a walk. Always (and mostly still does) come back on calling. Bess has had a passing interest in the coypu that abound round here and live in the banks of a stream. Two days back Poppy discovered a drainage pipe on our walk and dived down it into what I assume was a coypu warren. She'd already found another warren by the stream; this was 50 metres further on. Lots of noise and refused to come out. Bess followed Poppy but Bess eventually came out, covered in dry red earth with wild eyes. Poppy put her nose out and then dived back in. I took Bess back for a shower and OH stayed; some 10+ minutes later Poppy appeared, just as covered and needed a shower. So, confidence growing massively and one could say she is being a typical Jack Russell. Yesterday we took them for a short walk as weather wasn't good, we don't use leads on these walks. Distracted by a horse in a field, we looked back to find both dogs racing across a pasture field in separate directions. Bess came back after some heavy shouting. Poppy ignored us. Stream was in spate, but path alongside just about okay. My fear was she had gone into flood water or down flooded burrow entrance. Happily I found her close to where coypu live, but just muddied. Obvious relief. But on lead for walk home, but her nose never stopped searching.
Walks now a bit of a dilemma, so leads will be used.

Etoile de Berger

All sounds more positive than not.

Just a couple of things.
Expect your dog to have accidents with toilet issues. They can't be perfect all the time. Don't reprimand or shout, just quietly clean it up. But giving it a name helps to control what she does when she does it. after five years I still name it when I take my 7 year old out at night. It helps that she hears the words so that when she DOESN'T hear the words she will be less inclined to do anything.

Coypu. I know JR's love to be the terriers they were bred to be, but DO be careful of coypu. They carry disease and can be vicious when bothered. Personally I would stay away from their burrows. Try finding some rabbit holes instead!

Re shouting at a dog, I am still trying to stop my OH from reacting instinctively and doing this. It does absolutely no good at all, makes the dog think you are unreliable and eventually they will ignore you. A dog wants a calm, impervious, unflappable and capable leader who approves of him (or her).

Don't worry about water. Some dogs love it, some don't. I have had Border Collies for over 15 years and there is not rhyme or reason to thir preference re water. Course SOME breeds were created to work in water like Poodles and Labs but like mine, JR's are land dogs and prefer four feet on the ground.

And as for cuddling on the sofa, they may be worrying too much about who gets your affection most. I'd not push the issue and let them express themselves as they want.

As for myself I sold a pup from a litter I bred last year and as usual, chased up how they are progressing. Three of the four are doing well. The family which took one however has done NOTHING with it and at 6 months old is running the household. It looks, if they agree, that I will be training up yet ANOTHER young dog besides my own. Sometimes I have to wonder at the French and their understanding of animals. The problem family is in farming and wants the dog to work so he is the one where training matters most. This is not unusual but still after 15 years, amazes me as to their lack of understanding animals when they should be far better at it than others. In the end this is why I stopped breeding and did this last litter only to produce a female to replace her grandmother who is 15 and not immortal. It is so sad to see such ignorance.

If you want any help, don't hesitate to ask. I am not always right but in principle I know what has worked for me. Remember that in the end it is SO worth it!

Domino

sounds like the "kids" we used to have.
the border collie was Alpha Female, the dalmation/pointer cross bitch just did as she was told, the Norfolk Terrier dog just managed to keep up with the other two with their long legs, and even led them into a few scrapes.
they used to be let off in a large park area, we would follow the pathways, they would come out of the bushes every 15-20mins just to make sure we were keeping up then they would be off again, chasing rabbits to their hearts content.
After an hour or two, it was time for home and usually they were there to get in and make the car dirty inside. Always managed a good feed and a good night's sleep after the day's walk.
Arguements were few, usually the 2 girls, although he was put in his place once or twice.
Such a shame they all died in about 18m, different reasons, they made a great impression whilst with us and will not be forgotten. All came from different backgrounds, different circumstances. Still talk about them from time to time.
Hope that when our turn comes that we will be remembered with such love.

If this was a human child you had taken in would things be any different ? Nervous, wetting the bed, frightened when shouted at. The only thing you can do is to impose a regime, and you all keep to it, no deviations. Treats, like meals always equal, there can never be any favourites even if you have one. Time will out, and better with a bit a of love than to be pushed into a corner and ignored.
rgds

cjm

As I said at the outset, didn't wish to dominate this section of the Forum, but I have been impressed with the responses to my original and subsequent posts. Thanks to you Etoile (is the name Star of Venus?) and to Domino.
My shouting is, I have to confess a reaction to my fears for both our dogs. Like shouting at a child about to put their hand into boiling water.
It's a difficult balance to manage. I want them both to have freedom to explore, that's what JR's do and why I love their race (my previous dog was a Cocker/Border Collie X, a wonderful fellow and he was no less exploratory and harder to shower off afterwards!)
I am listening to your obvious wise words Etoile. Perseverance is the only way forward. We promised my FinL we would always take and care for Poppy and that cannot be broken. Her happiness though is very important. I sense she is, but it is not the full monty from her. We have to learn also.
We do things in balance and praise has been a key factor, even when it is 2am and I'm outside in a howling gale and rain with only a 'robe' on encouraging Poppy!
Our area is festooned with coypu (ragondin) and daily their corpses litter the roads in our 10 minute drive to the beach. They have claws like talons and water is their element; as you said JR's like four feet on the ground. Much of our area is flat (we are linked to the Marais Poitevin) with marsh and ditches in abundance. Did you know you can buy Ragondin Paté?
As an aside, I heard on radio in the night that Paris 'enjoys' 20 tonnes of dog poo per day!! And a King and Queen's ransom is spent clearing it up. Will post again, but happy for any shared thoughts.

Etoile de Berger

Just a quick side about ragodin.

They are the only living thing down here in the south for which there is no closed season. You can shoot them, trap them or poison them any time of the year. They can decimate maize crops and are carriers of all sorts of disease. If you are bitten you go STRAIGHT to the hospital.

I wouldn't even feed ragodin pate to my dogs!!