scrubbedexpat056

Hi, from another thread it was noted that any certificates needed for official government purposes have to be less than three months old. It was explained that this is because French birth certificates are updated to include changes such as marital status (anyone with more knowledge please feel free to correct me/add to the explanation). This was quite a shock for me.
We are planning on driving down to our boat in Agde on April 2nd to start our house hunting adventure on the Midi and Lateral canals. Then we will be back and forth and relying on our E111 (or whatever it's called now) and mutuelle insurance until we find what we are looking for. Can someone tell me if I have got the chronology correct for an inactif couple:
We buy a house, sign up for the utilities and start collecting proof of residence.
We change our mutuelle to full medical insurance.
After three months we are eligible to apply to join and pay into the French healthcare system assuming that all other criteria, income etc. are in place.
Once in the system we can reduce our medical insurance back to a mutuelle. There is also the tax situation, but that is another topic and I think I have got my head around that one.

The reason the timing might be important is that we are both Brits who got married in HongKong. Thinking ahead and knowing something of French bureaucracy I had looked into getting copies, but they are very expensive and take quite a while. I'm glad I didn't because it sounds like I would have wasted a lot of money on out of date certificates.

Also, and this is not meant as a criticism of the French system, it is what it is, but we have just successfully acquired a French bank account with Britline using all our old certificates. I guess the strictness of the French banking system is still not as hard as the government. In fact, when they sent the paperwork for us to sign, my wife contacted them because they had wrongly given her my surname on some of the documents (she kept her surname when we got married). They replied, apologising, and have changed the documents saying that it was simply a slight mismatch between new documents produced for the English speaking dept and older, general ones from CA. The point is the bank seemed positively lax in what are very important documents. Having said that, I can't fault my dealings with Britline.

I'm surprised I haven't seen mention of this certificate topic before, but then I didn't know to look for it. Maybe there are some threads that someone could point me to.

EuroTrash

Are you sure you can get mutuelle insurance to top up an E111?

I thought you could only get mutuelle once you had your French social security number. Your mutuelle works hand in hand with your French caisse, so if you don't have a French caisse ... Or maybe I've misunderstood what you mean by mutuelle. No doubt there is some kind of travel insurance you can get to supplement your cover under an E111.

Apart from that your timeline sounds bang on.

As you'll discover, each organisation has its own procedures and depending on exactly what criteria they need to check for their own purposes, they will be more picky or less picky about what they require and what they don't, and what they'll accept and what they won't. Banks, CPAM, CAF, the tax office, ANTS to register your car, they all have their own list of what justificatifs they need to see. It's not one definitive list that you need for "France". Your bank, for instance, is mainly concerned with your creditworthiness and how you run your account. CPAM needs to verify your identity, your civil status, your nationality and your right to reside in France.

Tweedpipe

Just a note which could be of interest regarding current birth certificates for French government administration purposes.
The requirement and the term one often sees is, 'Un extrait d'acte de naissance (recent) avec obligatoirement les mentions marginales.'
As ET mentioned in a related thread, a French birth certificate would have notations recorded in the margins of any changes to your état civile since birth. And understandably we Brits are unable to provide anything similar.
Now, a birth certificate of that nature looked as if it would become a major stumbling block when I was preparing the docs to renew my firearm certificates three years ago - normally if the docs are not prepared and accepted before the expiry date, one has to forfeit all hardware. The dossier required had always been a rather complex and hefty affair, comprising a checklist of 10 different official documents, and I noted - not without surprise - that an 11th had been added, namely the above birth certificate with details in the margin indicating any significant changes.
After having made an appointment, I decided to go along in person to the specific office who deals with and grants these requests to explain the situation, especially with regards to British birth certificates.
I may have been lucky, or perhaps it was the diplomatic way in which I approached the authorities at the Prefecture. After showing them the large original certificate, and also the slightly reduced-size scanned copy I'd prepared (not without difficulty), I convinced them that not only should this suffice, but it was beyond the realms of possibility to provide anything in a different form factor - and I mentioned that if required I would also draft a separate signed letter to that effect. I was told that would be satisfactory.
So the bottom line is, if one is in doubt of being able to provide precisely what is being requested, it pays to make an appointment with the authorities and discuss it directly with them.

EuroTrash

I often get sent French birth certificates to translate. The "mentions marginales" are exactly that - scrawled in handwriting all round the edge of the certificate, all dated with stamps and seals and all, quite fascinating in a way. You can see a person's whole life on their birth certificate. A totally different system to the UK and it is a meaningless requirement for a Brit, but it's a case of, can you get the fonctionnaire in front of you to understand that and use their discretion..

dmu

OH's has mentions marginales scrawled all around the margins, as he was married, divorced, then married to me. My daughters' margins are, at the moment, pristine white....
The CPAM needs the BC to prove that a widow(er) who applies for the Réversion de Pension is indeed what they claim.
Your average fonctionnaire doesn't realise that this system doesn't exist in the UK....

cyrian

Exactly.
I am glad I raised this point because it all depends on which civil servant you are talking to.
You would have thought that the countries in the EU could have sample certificates from each country with relevant translations available online with an explanation that there is a world outside France that does things differently.
French citizens have a livret de famille that is issued by the Mairie with their life history. They do not understand that this does not exist in every country.
Welcome to French bureaucracy.

scrubbedexpat056

EuroTrash, I guess I was using the term 'mutuelle' to mean any top up insurance without realising that it is a specific insurance within the French social security system. You've probably saved me from some very complicated and unrewarding conversations with insurance brokers.
On another note related to documents, what other than money is needed to buy a house in France with no need for a mortgage? I assume there isn't going to be a complicated dance with the need for recent documents for the notaire that will then have expired when applying to join the healthcare system. Then again, a common expression in my profession is 'Assumption is the mother of all **** ups.'

EuroTrash

Patience!

No, seriously, I don't think you need anything apart from money. I imagine the notaire will need to confirm your identity, as probably will the estate agent if you use one, but you don't need any other documents as far as I recall. If your French isn't all that, the notaire may insist on an interpreter being present at the signing, but that's a different issue and you can sort it if and when it arises.

In France, "mutuelle" cover is what people call the insurance they take out to top up their state healthcare reimbursements, which is a very specific type of state-regulated insurance. As you say, best not use that term in France if that's not actually what you mean, or it will be assumed that you already have a carte vitale. For top up insurance for an EHIC, I think you'd need to get this from the UK.

dmu

Your Marriage Certificate, and, if applicable, any Divorce Decrees, and Birth Certificates and present addresses of any children on either side - the Notaire needs to record your marital and family status (for later Inheritance/Succession issues).

cyrian

Ah - marital status.
In France there are two types of marriage séparation des biens
and communauté des biens.
The type of marriage is stated in the Acte de Vente of the house and this is important for inheritance and inheritance tax.
We declared a marriage régime of communauté des biens in front of our notaire which means joint ownership of all possessions which delays any inheritance issues until the second death.
HTH

EuroTrash

Good explanation of marriage regimes here, click on De quoi s'agit-il
https://www.service-public.fr/partic...vosdroits/F948

scrubbedexpat056

All good stuff, thanks.

dmu

Going a bit off-topic, our contract is a third type: "communauté des biens aux acquêts", meaning that all of OH's possessions before our marriage will go to his first-marriage children, everything acquired jointly after our marriage will eventually be divided between his and our children. My pre-marriage possessions (if I had any) would go to my children.
The "Communauté des biens" is OK if there are no children from former marriages. The Notaire advises on the best régime if there are, to protect every one's interests.
"Séparation des biens" is often chosen if one or both of the partners come from a wealthy family unwilling to let their assets go outside the family...

And now, back on topic!
Oooops, missed ET's link!

scrubbedexpat056

Right. I thought I had this straight in my head and then another thought popped up. Everyone mentions the french system of amending birth certificates to indicate changes in circumstances, which I understand now. Does that mean for applying to enter the French healthcare system it is only the birth certificate that needs to be less than three months old? In my case it's really only a new marriage certificate that will be a costly pain in the a**e. Our situation is boringly simple. We are both native brits who have only ever been married to each other and have no children.

dmu

AFAIK there are no amendments on French Marriage Certificates, but those who have produced their "foreign" ones for the CPAM will come along to confirm that they don't need to be re-issued with stamps and seals and all.
All the best!