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Old Dec 9th 2017, 2:22 pm   #1
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Default Brexit Exit

I have been hedging my bets but after yesterday's Brexit announcement I am now committed to moving to France with a view to gaining French citizenship.

I might begin this process with a 1-2 year masters course which I believe can shorten the naturalisation period to 4 years.

I just want to see, are there others here in the same situation?

Thanks!
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Old Dec 10th 2017, 9:31 am   #2
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Default Re: Brexit Exit

We are already resident in France, so are not in the same situation. Brexit is a concern but nothing is enshrined in French legislation, yet.

Do you know what you want to study and where in France you what to apply?

The current conditions for French naturalisation are at service-public / Naturalisation : conditions a remplir. You are right that an appropriate qualification obtained through an établissement d'enseignement supérieur reduces the five year requirement to two years :

Quote:
Originally Posted by service-public / Naturalisation : conditions a remplir
2 ans d'études accomplies avec succès pour obtenir un diplôme d'un établissement d'enseignement supérieur français : 2 ans
Does anyone know if the two years studying counts as the two years required in the naturalisation application?
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Last edited by graham.miln; Dec 10th 2017 at 11:18 am. Reason: Questions about studying.
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Old Dec 10th 2017, 12:36 pm   #3
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Default Re: Brexit Exit

Quote:
Originally Posted by graham.miln View Post
Does anyone know if the two years studying counts as the two years required in the naturalisation application?
My understanding is that if you study at an approved institution for 2 years then you only need stay for another 2 years before you are allowed to apply for citizenship.

I think this is probably aimed at non-EU nationals. For example, a US citizen enters France on a student visa, studies for 2 years and then gets a job allowing them to stay afterwards - they could take advantage of this 4 year rule.

My concern is the potential for the UK government to really screw things up so badly that Brits in the EU lose all or most of their current EU rights.

What scenario could I create for myself to give myself maximum security.

I work myself and have a growing business so getting a job isn't a great option for me.

Jumping on a 2 year course starting Autumn 2018 and hoping that the transition period extends into 2023 (unlikely I think).

Getting my foot in the country asap and then starting a 2 year course before the end of the transition period - I think that's my best option.

Spring 2018 - Enter France and start renting and doing whatever else is necessary to prove 'residency' from this point
Spring 2019 - Brexit
Autumn 2020 - start 2 years Masters (many of these are free in France)
Spring 2021 - End of transition period, but may status is protected no matter what thanks the course I'm studying
Summer 2022 - Course ends, I have 4 years residency under my belt with 2 years study, and I've done it in a way that gives me maximum protection from extreme brexit fallout.

I love it when a plan comes together!
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Old Dec 10th 2017, 7:36 pm   #4
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Default Re: Brexit Exit

Quote:
Originally Posted by graham.miln View Post
We are already resident in France, so are not in the same situation. Brexit is a concern but nothing is enshrined in French legislation, yet.

Do you know what you want to study and where in France you what to apply?

The current conditions for French naturalisation are at service-public / Naturalisation : conditions a remplir. You are right that an appropriate qualification obtained through an établissement d'enseignement supérieur reduces the five year requirement to two years :



Does anyone know if the two years studying counts as the two years required in the naturalisation application?
The site indicates that you have to have obtained a diploma after two years' studying in an établissement d'enseignement supérieur, before you then justify a durée de résidence in France of 2 years more, when applying for naturalisation, so yes, the OP is correct. I suspect that he would need to find long-term work in France, immediately after getting his diploma, though. The employment situation is dire at the moment, although by the time he's got his diploma, Macron may have improved the economy...
Maybe he could give more info about himself and his present status, and what he would be studying (in French?) in order to obtain a French Diploma after 2 years. And how he would support himself and have healthcare coverage as soon as he arrives, in order to comply with the residence requirements after 3 months....
We could advise better with more knowledge of his situation and projects...
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Old Dec 12th 2017, 8:36 am   #5
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Default Re: Brexit Exit

Quote:
Originally Posted by modernexplorer View Post
My understanding is that if you study at an approved institution for 2 years then you only need stay for another 2 years before you are allowed to apply for citizenship.

I think this is probably aimed at non-EU nationals. For example, a US citizen enters France on a student visa, studies for 2 years and then gets a job allowing them to stay afterwards - they could take advantage of this 4 year rule.

My concern is the potential for the UK government to really screw things up so badly that Brits in the EU lose all or most of their current EU rights.

What scenario could I create for myself to give myself maximum security.

I work myself and have a growing business so getting a job isn't a great option for me.

Jumping on a 2 year course starting Autumn 2018 and hoping that the transition period extends into 2023 (unlikely I think).

Getting my foot in the country asap and then starting a 2 year course before the end of the transition period - I think that's my best option.

Spring 2018 - Enter France and start renting and doing whatever else is necessary to prove 'residency' from this point
Spring 2019 - Brexit
Autumn 2020 - start 2 years Masters (many of these are free in France)
Spring 2021 - End of transition period, but may status is protected no matter what thanks the course I'm studying
Summer 2022 - Course ends, I have 4 years residency under my belt with 2 years study, and I've done it in a way that gives me maximum protection from extreme brexit fallout.

I love it when a plan comes together!
Sorry, I somehow missed this post when adding to graham.miln's...
Just a few comments:
Take a look at the "Renting" thread in the Read Me: Moving to France FAQs above. French landlords require a potential tenant to prove a regular income 3-4 times the rent (not simply money in the Bank), failing which you must have a Guarantor who can.
I understood from the site that you must have done the two years' study (with success) before starting to count the 2 years' residence. You would have to find out whether you can do it the other way round.
You're being coy as to the subject matter of your Degree, and the level of your French... Some Masters may be free, but in which language? And if you find a Masters Course in English, would the Authorities consider it sufficient for the naturalisation requirement?
If you intend to run a business in France, you must set up a suitable business structure, and the landlord must give his/her written permission for you to do so. There's a thread on the subject in the FAQs above, or you could do a forum search.
Maybe you should start another thread, with a different title. The present one is one of many on the subject of Brexit and others who have a wealth of knowledge on all aspects which would concern you here, may not have read this one.
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Old Dec 13th 2017, 7:37 pm   #6
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Default Re: Brexit Exit

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmu View Post
French landlords require a potential tenant to prove a regular income 3-4 times the rent (not simply money in the Bank)...
...and proof of your last three months of salary (3 payslips).
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Old Dec 15th 2017, 10:56 pm   #7
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Default Re: Brexit Exit

Quote:
Originally Posted by modernexplorer View Post
I have been hedging my bets but after yesterday's Brexit announcement I am now committed to moving to France with a view to gaining French citizenship.

I might begin this process with a 1-2 year masters course which I believe can shorten the naturalisation period to 4 years.

I just want to see, are there others here in the same situation?

Thanks!
I'm not in the same situation but am also concerned about this Brexit nonsense. I don't think it'll really happen but of course it might.

Our strategy is to establish my wife's right to French citizenship based on her mother's nationality and place of birth (both in France).

We consulted a Notaire when last in France and it should work for us. However my wife (as I do) has both a UK and a Canadian passport and we didn't have the Canadian one with us at the time, so the process will move on next time we're there. Likely in April.
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Old Dec 19th 2017, 4:55 am   #8
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Default Re: Brexit Exit

Thanks DMU for taking my question seriously and replying with such detail.

I didn't mean to be coy about my study intentions, I'm just travelling a lot right now and haven't had time to reply. I would study a Masters in the areas of environmental science, conservation, sustainability, or international development. Broadly those are my fields of previous study and business. I have found some good options with the courses taught in English. You are right that I should not assume that these would qualify for the shortened naturalisation period.

I definitely need to find out if I can make this work the other way round (2 years residence then 2 years study). I imagine it is unlikely, but worth some inquiry. I could probably start a course in October 2018 if need be.

My French is currently quite poor, but my experience so far tells me that it comes easier to me than other languages I have studied (such as Indonesian). I do pick up languages quite well once in country, and luckily I am also enthralled by the French language and I think I would really relish the chance to become fluent, which should help.

The info regarding renting is extremely helpful. I run my own small business and I should have no problem proving income through bank statements, but I gather I may have to be prepared to find a guarantor if the fact that my income is from my business is seen as being insecure. I will take your advice and read up around that subject as it seems to be the most important one to begin with.

It seems quite bizarre that your landlord can stop you from setting up a business(!) but I guess I'll have to get used to a lot of unusual red tape from what people say. Again, thanks for the heads up on that one.

Lots of reading to do!
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Old Dec 19th 2017, 5:00 am   #9
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Default Re: Brexit Exit

I really should just find a French wife!

My current partner would not be too happy about that though! She's already convinced that I fancy all French women just because of their accent!

Where did you find your Notaire? Do you think it would be useful for me to speak to one? Or would an immigration lawyer be better?

I can't see Brexit not happening now. I wish it wasn't the case but now Barnier is saying that the UK can't revoke A50 unanimously (under contention, but that's the EU stance now) it seems to me thatit's inevitable
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Old Dec 19th 2017, 7:51 am   #10
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Default Re: Brexit Exit

Quote:
Originally Posted by modernexplorer View Post

It seems quite bizarre that your landlord can stop you from setting up a business(!) but I guess I'll have to get used to a lot of unusual red tape from what people say. Again, thanks for the heads up on that one.

Lots of reading to do!
Your landlord wouldn't actually stop you from setting up a business, but he may object to your official "place of business" being on his property. The lease usually includes a clause whereby the premises can't be used for commercial purposes and he/she would have every right to terminate the contract if you worked there without his/her permission.
When, as a tenant, I first started free-lance, my "business" had to be domiciled with an Agent, and when I later moved my subsequent company to our house, we, as owners, had to give myself permission to use one of the rooms as an office...
That's one of the many French quirks that you'll come across!

P.S. I should mention that it was the Fisc which made us fill in stacks of forms, indicating the measurements of the room compared to the rest of the house, etc..., all for Tax purposes!

Last edited by dmu; Dec 19th 2017 at 8:29 am.
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Old Dec 19th 2017, 8:05 am   #11
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Default Re: Brexit Exit

If you do manage to set up the business from home, you need the take out a small insurance policy for "Resposabilité Civile". It just covers you for eventual legal complications linked to the business. I set one up through my bank and it costs about 22 euros a month. If I remember rightly, you have to have that in order to have a bank account specifically for the business.
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Old Dec 19th 2017, 9:04 am   #12
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Default Re: Brexit Exit

Re running a business from rented premises, I believe that unless it's a copropriété where the rules are different, the landlord can't refuse without good reason. Good reason might be for instance if you have a lot of business visitors, if your business is noisy, if you keep chemicals on the premises, any reasonable objection, but he can't refuse without giving a reason. But obviously you need to get their official consent because it's their address that you'll be registering as your head office, the address will be recorded on all the official registers and the property will potentially be liable for business tax, so they need to know.

Have you actually decided how the business side will work and how you'll pay your social security contributions once you're living here? Is your business a limited company with you as an employee, or are you currently registered as a sole trader? If the former I guess you would register yourself with URSSAF as an employee, there's a dedicated portal where firms with no place of business in France can register employees living and working in France. If that's the case and you would be working from home as an employee rather than running a business from home (a smal but very very significant distinction), the landlord wouldn't be concerned. If the latter you need to put some thought into what kind of business structure would work best for you. If you haven't started looking into that yet, don't leave it to the last minute because it needs careful planning to make sure you choose the most beneficial route.
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Old Dec 19th 2017, 10:15 am   #13
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Default Re: Brexit Exit

This is the portal you can use if you have a ltd co in the UK and you intend to live and work in France as an employee of that company
Presentation "The Foreign Firm Slip" - I wonder why they call it a "Slip"
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