Rod_ph

Hello Domino,
Talking about the grey vote , it seems as if some of the expats responding to our on-line voting rights poll see the possibility of being able to vote as perhaps another way of exerting pressure come election time on the issue of their frozen pensions (I don't have a frozen UK state) or they are what I would more term political activists. In between you have those who need more confidence in and/or respect for, politicians e.g. following the recent and continuing (another ex-MP facing jail over fraudulent expense claims) parliamentary expenses scandal.
Your constructive feedback helps to keep my interest up!
Kind regards,
Rod

Domino

Well Rod, I just don't see that people know or understand their potential for loss of pension rights - after all it isnt included in FCO (or other Government Dept) information websites or documents that I have seen or noticed.
They do however make a small effort now to mention that living in certain countries may effect your pension rights.

There have always been people, outside the professional civil service, who have moved to other countries to live and work. Their reasons are many and varied, from pure wander lust to love to running from the law to being approached to spreading Gods work.
Looking at history there are a few notable examples one of which is recorded in The King and I. Then there are those such as Farquharson, Grice, Gwyn, Bruce and Colson hired by Peter the Great to set up schools of mathematics and navigation in the 1700's.
Samuel Greig, a Scotsman who became Admiral and Commander in Chief of Her Imperial Majesties Fleets in the Baltic
John Elphinston, a captain in the British Royal Navy, accepted a commission as rear-admiral in the Russian Navy.
But then that period was all before the commoner got the vote.

Looking at it from the outside in, it would appear the UK has been over eager to give incomers the right to vote at all levels. Is this in desperation or just to cover for those who have left the nest?
However, I have seen in recent years the postal vote exercised by incomers cause problems and lead to one or two candidates being successfully prosecuted for voting fraud.

You mentioned earlier about the armed forces and the need to remain on the fence. Well in my experience that was never the case, we all had our political leanings but it never got in the way. Very few actually registered for postal voting, believing quite rightly IMHO, that it would make no difference.
After all, how many, if any elections at any level, have been swung by the vote of the serviceman in the field?? Perhaps another group disenfranchised by apathy in this instance!

kr
Dom

Rod_ph

Hello Domino,
Your last point on the armed forces' vote not making much difference got me thinking. Those servicemen in the field and of our parents' generation at the end of the second world war, certainly seemed to want to come home to make a difference in voting to throw out the victorious Churchill (the old establishment) and bring in the new, with Clement Atlee (who's always seemed like an old Tory type to me by the way!) at the head of a Labour government! This was one of those unique moments in history of course when the sheer number of people mobilised and thrown together in a war could make a social difference and through their vote brought in the NHS and the welfare state.
Thanks for your feedback.
Rod

Domino

Hi Rod
yes, the 2 WW's caused major upheavels for all, and we get details of the fighting and how people pulled together for the good of the nation.
what we don't get is the aftermath, when thousands of men came home from the war to no jobs, all taken by those who hadn't been out of the country.
I remember when packing up my dad's things for the last time I found his war medals, still in the box as received, never been hung, the ribbons pristine and unused. I still have them here. But this reminded me of how disparaging he had been about certain things from post war events, how difficult it was and so on. And that those medals were all he ever got for his time in the war and Burma in particular. Perhaps in some ways he regretted not carrying on, as he was offered the chance to stay with the regiment which was going on to Malaya to fight the insurgents there. But I know he wanted to get home, after 3-4 years away with only letters and nothing else.

I wonder how many returning soldiers actually voted in the election of 5 July 1945. VE day was 8 May 1945 and VJ day was 15 Aug 1945. The votes polled in 1945 was approx 24million whilst in 1950 approx 28million. This would indicate there were a large number of people not able to make a vote in 1945, because they were elsewhere. Easy with hindsight to say that the 1945 election was called with undue haste, espcially as many people were out of the country. However, the subsequent election in 1950 brought about a similar result, irrespective of Atlee appearing to be a Tory in disguise.
I would have to be dig out all my dads papers to see where he was at that time.

May I be so bold to say that the service "vote" is truly a "lost" vote, rarely IME used, especially as a serviceman may be living in married quarters in, say, Portsmouth, but have all his roots in, say, Liverpool. No interest in one but unable to vote in the other.

so really the problem has not been resolved, many are disenfranchised by job and by location. But no party seems able (or willing) to address the situation - probably because of the negligable difference it would make to the result.

rgds
Dom

Rod_ph

Hello Domino,
Thanks for your heartfelt input on the wartime experience of your father and his subsequent disillusionment (such as no jobs) after having been away a long time fighting for our country. The soldiers from my home city of Cambridge were shipped out to prop up the then failing efforts against the Japanese and arrived at the fall of Singapore to go straight into the prision camps (as I was told as a boy anyway and have in my head as a folk memory I suppose). I have childhood memories of a few and very sick looking returned POWs from the Far East. Your dad then was in the subsequent successful fight back in Burma.
So Domino, taken together with your firsthand experience as a serviceman and having had no such experience myself, I have no problem in accepting your views on the worthwhileness of the serviceman's vote.

Domino

ISTR there were troops who arrived in Singapore and had hardly arrived before Lt Gen Percival surrendered. The actual fighting only lasted a week, although there had been fighting as the Japanese came down Malay, it was more or less a forced march.
the problem was the speed at which it all happened, it was too fast for people in control back in London to believe let alone understand and respond. What with having Pearl Harbour on Dec 7th, the Prince of Wales and Repulse sunk on Dec 10th, Singapore fell on 15th Feb with the view of saving more lives, which didnt happen, but also the situation was made dire because all the guns were pointing out to sea and the invasion came from the "back" via Johore.
I was out there in the mid-60's as a teenager and remember the still bad feelings about the Japanese and that time. We had a large swimming pool at Kranji Wireless that was derelict - I was told because British forces were marched in there and shot.

Enough of this, nowt to do with voting today, I hope this will put a few more people to thinking about their Voting Rights, how some people have given their lives for that right and will want to use it more. Perhaps once they lose it they will suddenly realise. But then it will be too late

rgds
Dom

Mitzyboy

My father, ex Navy, hated the Germans all his life. I guess you cant blame him, as they spent years trying to kill him whilst he was protecting the merchant ship convoys in the North Sea. I'm guessing my father felt little different to many people who served in the war. It took him over 50 years to be recognised in the form of a medal from the Russians. He left it in the box and gave it to me.

Domino

My father was the same about the Japanese.
It was very difficult when he bought a new television or radio with a well known English name on the front, but on the label at the back it said Made In Japan.

Back in those days that was their way of taking on markets where there was hate and antipathy, now it is all lost in the mists of time and makes such as Sanyo, Sony, Onkyo etc are now falling off the shelves

Funnily enough his feelings didnt stretch to his great love of photography where he was introduced to Fuji when they first started selling in the UK and went on to use it for decades until he died. I have bought Fuji 35mm film in Uk taken photos and had them developed in Singapore and perfect. Also film from Singapore to Uk also perfect. Neither of us could get on with Agfa.

A good reason for ensuring you keep your vote methinks.

Rod_ph

Thanks Domino & Mitzyboy,
On the influence of our parents' experiences during the Second World War, I must admit that I have still tended to select higher priced German white goods such as washing machines, dishwashers and fridges together with their cars for reasons of quality and I've also purchased one Japanese car in the past and have (I think?) no problem buying e.g. Sony consumer products.
In contrast my elder brother still makes his silent protest in never buying Japanese cars for example. The fanatical (to Western minds) Japanese military code at the time as I understand it (and Domino knows I don't mind being corrected!) and how the ordinary Japanese soldier was indoctrinated, did not permit any honour in surrender in them or their foes. Similarly their neglect in not building supply lines to support their rapid advances, assuming that they could live off the land with no "dishonoured" prisoners to also feed, ultimately proved fatal for both. It's an explanation of their behaviour I suppose but not a justification and, now that I have written this down, I admit it still rankles a bit that they (unlike the Germans) have never really be forced to face up to the atrocities they committed in the Far East.
I like Domino's conclusion that the hard-won right to vote is something of value and not to be lightly taken away by politicians just because we expats move around.

Domino

Rod, I think our parents would be aghast !! Buying German goods
I remember the complaint being made, (but its in the mists of time so don't aske me to remember where) that in the 50's the British were still turning out gear using the same old lathes etc that were clapped out at the start of the war, whilst Germany had been completely re-tooled and automated using Marshall Plan money - not a penny went to Britain.
The only true benefit of winning a war is the right to write the history.
So whilst we were reading those comic books of fighting German and Japanese soldiers our former enemies were getting on with rebuilding the world to their advantage.....

Rod, didnt the Japanese, possibly inadvertantly (?), use the military tactics of the ancients - living off the land, taking from the locals, killing the locals who got in the way. After all, for example - the Roman Legionnaire wasnt just a killing machine, he was a carpenter, stonemason, labourer, or just a piece of muscle to get the job done. The Japanese employed the same principles of living off the land, remember that they also suffered deprivation when food was scarce. IMO they didnt have the wherewithall to have a supply line, having landed far enough away from Singapore not to have entered into a potentially ruinous fight, but were able to sink Prince of Wales and Repulse to ensure their landing safely. They had the advantage of being able to live off the food that was\is common to both Japan and Malysia - rice. Unlike the Brits who still had to have a British Breakfast before going off to war. But they also had a strict code of conduct, and I believe the worst were those who were peasants who became NCO's and officers, rather than the common soldier and the true military officers. Even today they have similar codes - make a mistake and cut off the first joint of a digit is still common.

But this is in part the reason why so many men and women gave their lives, to ensure a free future for their families and descendents, with the right to vote. That right must be inviolate, along with free speech, not lost because of the right of the individual to live where he desires. It should not be taken away because of an administrative decision by a civil servant, rubber stamped by a politician who only wishes to get on with something else and doesnt see the ramifications of what he is doing

rgds

Domino

Women in Saudi Arabia to vote and run in elections
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-15052030

Good news, but will they lose that right to vote if they live outside the country for 15 years ??

Rod_ph

Good point, Domino!
The Saudi establishment must be feeling the chilly breeze of an approaching "Arab spring" but it's a pretty small bone to toss to the Saudi women who seem to be restricted in just about everything else compared with men.

I'll combine this with some input below for you on the UK service vote!

Quote: In a written statement to the House of Commons this week, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence Andrew Robathan reported on the latest survey of electoral registration levels amongst members of the armed forces:
It indicates that 75% of service personnel are registered to vote, up from 69% in 2009 and 60% in 2005. This represents the highest level of service registration since I first raised the issue back in 2005. Of those registered in 2010, the majority (77%) chose to register as ordinary rather than service voters. The level of voters registered as overseas voters has remained at 1%.Unquote

I guess there is a big difference between registering and actually voting but at least we can assume these are valid registrations.
regards,
Rod

Rod_ph

Hello Domino,
Further to your concluding paragraph above and with which I agree , Ronald Searle the cartoonist (and actually a former pupil of the grammar school I attended in Cambridge) in an article on his 91st birthday in last Sunday's Times, seemed quite philosophical in recalling his experiences of the fall of Singapore, imprisonment in Changi and as a forced labourer building the Burma - Thailand railway (those Japanese supply lines?). He put down their treatment to a clash of completely different cultures.
Continuing with this service theme then and its association with hard-won voting rights, there is also Harry Shindler a WWII veteran of the Italian campaign still fighting for his voting rights at 89!
They come from a tough breed.

Domino

Hi Rod
as to the Japanese supply lines, they always come later. The Japanese army lived off the land until they had subjugated the area and then turned their prisoners to work providing the infrastructure they needed. This was something that wasnt understood when on day one they were at A and 5 days later were knocking at the (back) door of Singapore. Totally unexpected, at least not the way the British Army would do things. They had to move fast to prevent the destruction of the oil products in Singapore to refuel their ships that would bring supplies, one of the main reasons for the plan of action when they first started their war, having been themselves subject to an element of torched earth in China earlier. The railway was to move supplies to support the attack on India, but they had to fight hard the Chindits who refused to give in on anything. I believe a number of Japanese commanders were complimentary about this after the event.
They seemed to find the troops the best form of labour, I havent read much about them using Malays and Thai's in the same way but more than happy to be corrected on that.

The reasonable way Harry Shindler puts it sounds quite reasonable, as we have already agreed it is now a basic human right to vote. Yes, Ok, 15 years is a reasonable time and if someone retires at 65 to live in another country then they wll be 80 and as believed by civil service bean counters at or approaching death's door, so not interested in voting except for an easy exit.
But - we allow people from other countries to move here and give them a vote in elections without a qualifying period. They also stand for election in local and national elections. (subject to certain limitations) Is that right ?

Rod_ph

Hello Domino,
I put your last point to a good friend of mine - Scottish, expat, miner's son and now retired in the south of France. He's UK politically aware, as an example he once stood as a Labour candidate for a constituency seat but was unfortunately not selected by the local party. Anyway I paraphrased you to ask him what he thought about new arrivals in the UK from a different culture having more voting rights than us after 15 years out of the country, although we still share the same culture of the majority in the UK.
Perhaps it was a flippant remark after a glass of wine or two but he said that's alright because they are there and we are here!
It's just a small indication that this issue of expatriate voting rights benefits from debate as I like to think we try to do in this thread. I read the other day that as only 13,000 expats out of the estimated 6.5 million outside the UK are registered to vote, this is a good indication of the actual level of interest. However, given the modern communications tools available particularly via the internet, you'd think the UK Electoral Commission (or powers that be) could do a better job of stimulating interest in, and making it easier to register for, those with less than 15 years out of the country and still able to vote, rather than just pushing out a bland notice to register each general election time.
Rod