Domino

Rod
glad the crocodile tears pleased you - I give you my permission to use it as you see fit

I come from a working class family, mother was in service at the big house until she married. Father was from Welsh mining family, told by his older brothers they didn't want to see his face down the mines - for his own good. So he moved to Hertfordshire. If he was a stick of rock you would have seen LABOUR and UNIONS running through him.
I have never shared my parents political leanings, perhaps their fault for ensuring I could read the Daily Mirror before I went to school at 5, where many of my compatriats had difficulty with words letalone sentences. But they probably went on to do better in life than I did

ISTR you are not resident in the Uk, so suggest you get someone to do some legwork for you. Gain access to the Electoral Roll for various streets you know and love - see who is (or isn't) on there. You would also be surprised at how the surnames of certain couples are not the same. But you would also see how many houses are not on the ER because the form has been returned marked with Empty\Gone Away and various other statements. (Note: ER isn't confidential as it is available in city libraries for perusal and copying)
Not putting name on the ER is something imported from Scotland after their "trial".
The same goes for the Census, where many people claimed they were not in the house at the time - but if you could drill down you won't find them visiting anywhere else.
a quick check on 192.com may also show up a number of anomolies, but they don't seem to cleanse the old information they have. However, when you see 9 living in a 2 up 2 down in certain parts of a city you know its right

The Benefit dept of councils use all sorts of means to check the information they hold on people. I have seen one council that referred to 10year old information as proof of a residency.

Big Brother is alive and well, there is enough about expats held in potentially insecure filing cabinets in DWP Newcastle.
rgds

Rod_ph

Thanks for that , Domino. We both come from working class backgrounds with Labour voting parents but I must admit that I have voted for both Labour and the Conservatives in the past, depending on which constituency I was living in at the time and whether it might make a difference. My wife is Welsh by the way and comes from Anglesey in North Wales from where I am sending this response. Through her we are both members of the Paris Welsh Society (despite me being English) and when I speak to the younger members from South Wales living in Paris there remain very raw memories and a gut-hatred of Mrs Thatcher passed down from the former mining communities that were left with no hope of further employment as they felt it at the time.
You are certainly very clued up on the seeming of data records collected on citizens in the UK whether for the ER or census although you suggest that Big Brother in Newcastle might know more about us expatriates than is healthy for us!

Domino

Rod
Heath asked us a simple question "who runs this country Me or the Miners" and we told him the Miners giving us another Labour govt we really didnt need
Thatcher was determined that would not happen on her watch. That many of those miners knew their mines were finished with no reserve didn't matter, they just needed someone to blame. The lady made many tough decisions a lot of males would have balked at. It is wrong to instill a hatred into the next generation(s) without them understanding what it is really about. The thought of Kinnock and his Glenis at No 10 makes me shudder.

having been involved in security and data protection for many years may I suggest an exercise for you?
think of someone you know well, possibly who is director of a company, even a small one.
enter their name into Google and look for the hits from 192.com, Linkdin, Facebook, a couple of sites listing directorships such as Jordans and Companiesintheuk.co.uk
you will be amazed at how much information on individuals there is in the public domain. As I said previous, add to that a pleasant morning in the local library looking at the electoral roll - you will be given the full version not the abbreviated one.

I have a shredder and shred all papers\envelopes etc with names, addresses, figures on etc etc. (inc shopping till receipts cos they show part of credit card no) old credit cards are cut into at least 10 pieces and disposed of over 2 bin collections.

remember that Big Brother in Newcastle has all the pension records for those retiring home or abroad, there is a link to HMRC where you don't have to give your permission.
your medical records, even if now living abroad, are kept for up to 40 years dependent on what you have had wrong with you
when driving your car down the road and you get zapped by an ANPR camera it will check your tax, insurance, MOT, are in date and anything ekse outstanding.

Paranoid?? Me?? what gave you that idea
just surprised with all that surveillance (which doesnt include cctv when walking down the street) that I need to register on the ER - someone could probably do it for me
rgds
Dom

Rod_ph

Hello Domino,
I should have perhaps guessed that'd you been in the security and data protection business!
From what you say I can see how easy it is for journalists also to collect all sorts of information about individuals and hence the current phone hacking controversy in the UK involving the now defunct News of the World. Young people in particular don't seem to care how much they freely reveal of themselves on these social networking sites such as Facebook and , taking your advice with a Google search on a friend of mine, up he came top of the list with his Linked-In business profile. I actually wrote a reference on Linked-In for a young salesman who worked for me down in South Africa and now find myself also posted there as an independent telecommunications professional (their definition not mine!) without any actual application to join on my part. I've have also only just recently got rid (I hope) of a bad-debt chasing agency which kept sending me letters and telephoning me about a person with my surname and supposedly living at my address and which has given me pause for thought on my personal data protection practices. Your information security input is well appreciated, therefore, along with your comments on Margaret Thatcher (should I dare to raise the matter again with my friends from South Wales!).

Domino

well Rod, it's easy - just go up to someone you don't know and ask them to give you their telephone no's, credit card no etc etc and duck as they try to hit you. Instead just walk behind them after they have just bought something and pick up their dropped rubbish to get started.

I used to be involved in a business handling client staff information etc. Regualarly I was asked "should this go for shredding?" to which my response was "if in doubt - shred it !!). Life is too short to debate it !!..
We shredded 2tonnes of confidential information every month, all stored in locked wheelie bins. in the event of something being put in the wrong place access was severely restricted to ensure no cross fertilisation between different company files. also destroyed a tonne of cd's and tapes every quarter. The whole lot only cost around £1500-£2000pa - a very low cost to ensure we were leak proof. I never charged for my random walkrounds in the evening checking bins, but I did find the occaisional laptop not put away which were "stolen" for the night. (6 on one Friday evening).

Now you have seen what I mean, try Googling for Rod_ph and see that all posts on here are there as well. So someone only has to know your "handle" or "street name" to start cracking you open. Passwords can also be cracked in a similar manner....

Having had to sign the Official Secrets Act twice, from an occupation in an era when it was important to maintain secrecy I shudder when I hear of DPA breeches. It is lack of discipline, lack of integrity and more importantly lack of interest. And I don't believe the Commissioner is active enough to ensure directors and managers take responsibility.

Having your identity cloned is much larger problem than people realise. My cc was cloned at petron station (lots of authorities knew about it but didnt tell anyone) and my account was rifled. Took ages to resolve but the final cracker was when I proved I had used another card for petrol and food from Morrisons in the Midlands when the rogue card was being used in Marks & Spencers in Brighton.

The postmen around here are currently students on leave from uni, dumped on an estate without a map. Remember last year a guy standing at the bottom of the drive holding up a letter and comparing the number on the letter with the number on the front door.

by the way, ISTR you can get your information removed from the Linkedin website on request
rgds
Dom

Mitzyboy

Listen both ........ I have a friend who can find anyone through the internet. I dont even ask him how he does it, but we traced a scammer years ago who had ripped off a forum member, and got his address, full name and al kinds of stuff on him.

He once did a check on me just out of interest, and it was frightening. Caused me to change quite a few things. You're never safe, believe me, if someone who knows how is determined enough

Domino

would never disagree - the idea is to endeavour not to get yourself into that situation.
so many people would be horrified at how much there is out there on them and brought together by the finest of filiments.
much information is "as leaky as a sieve", as I have indicated, in the uk you can tick to have your name removed from the list sold to the likes of 192.com et al, but you can walk into a library and ask for a copy which is the full version - then walk over to a copier and walk out with a copy.

the phone hacking saga will carry on and on - the guy whose name is most in the frame was paid full time and was just feeding the information. he will not be the only one as other papers will have wanted their own source(s).

I don't make myself out to be a guru on this stuff, perhaps I could have been but too many other things got in the way. All I know is I do what I can to mitigate the possibilities by using various means, including my manic shredding of till receipts.

I have been on this site for more than 45secs and you will be able to find me............

Rod_ph

Hello Domino,
I've just got back from entertaining my grandchildren on the beach which can be quite time consuming!
Anyway, your "guru-like" expertise on our personal security protection seems pretty adequate to me. It's an interesting thread which has taken me away from my original theme but is drawing in visitors. As you point out all newspapers have been in this phone-hacking type of information gathering exercise but the others seem to be taking the opportunity to use this to attack those in the News International Group. Even Piers Morgan is denying having anything to do with this sort of thing when editor of the NOTW and then the Mirror. Having clawed his way up the greasy pole at such a young age it's difficult to believe! As I understand it, if you telephone a newsdesk they automatically record your number just in case it might be useful in the future.

JAJ

So why not become a French citizen? In most EU/EEA states British citizens can apply for local citizenship after 5-8 years and in the majority of countries, you're allowed to keep British citizenship.

Rod_ph

When you are moving around - and I've lived in Belgium, France, South Africa and now France again - when do I decide what nationality I should apply for in order to vote in national elections? The one constant seems to be that I'm British.

Domino

why become a Frenchman, German or whatever, we are already citizens of the European Union. When we apply for things like National Insurance No and more especially Residence status in a country within the EU that should give us the right to vote in the country where we are resident. The result of that election may (not) have a bearing on our future(s).

The "right to vote" would therefore be something transferrable as the individual moves from one State to another within the Union. It would also enable that invididual to make a valid and worthwhile contribution to the community they are living (and working) in. (in the same way as we may move from Sussex to Cornwall)
This would not deny the rights of the individual to be known by their Nationality, which would not change due to a change in voting rights..

The term "ethnic origin" should be banned. In the uk we have ethnicity reporting forms that allow recognition of some individuals by a mix of their nationality and an area grouping i.e. Asian Pakistani, Asian Indian, Black Carribean, etc when an Englishman is lucky to be able to tick a box which says White or White European. That is denying the Englishman recognition of his national roots, which go back a couple of thousand years. And yet this is the route approved by........................The Racial Equality Commission.! !

I refuse to accept the term British because it is much devalued "nationality" which is sold to those incomers who can pass a "tick the box" test and receive a certificate from the local mayor. Hence on forms I will tick "Other" and put English. Which has caused some consternation when filling in some security forms as they don't know what to do.

So in summation - everyone keeps their Nationality as born or formally adopted (and giving up all others) and uses their Citizenship to allow them to vote in elections in the country where they reside. (subject to registering).

Or take the Tebbitt "cricket test" - whether British citizens from ethnic minorities support, in a cricket match, England or their country of origin.

rgds

Domino

Hi Rod
hope the grandchildren didn't make you too tired, it gets to the aching bones in the morning
but its nice to spend time with them as it gives a different perspective to life and goes to underline the reasons why.

The likes of Morgan et al knew their paper had a "way in" to such information. I doubt very very much if all these deniers are telling the truth, more likely it is what they have talked themselves into this being the truth, having put their hands over ears and mumbled LA LA LA LA LA LA LA

Unless Mulcaire was in the pay of all of the papers there are others who have also been doing exactly the same thing - so who are they.?
It is significant that Sara Payne's personal mobile appears to have been untouched - but only a limited number of people knew she had one paid for by the NOTW, which "escaped attention" the first time round.

This type of affair gives lie to the often mouthed words "I have to ask you a few questions for security purposes"
And where is the Information Commisioner in all this.? So far as I am aware - very quiet indeed.

Rod, I hope you haven't spent too much on that nice new shredder you have rushed out to buy - when next in UK you could give a reasonable one from Maplin, but always go for the more epensive ones, cheap can be very false economy.
rgds
Dom

JAJ

Because the European Union is not a country. So you are still a foreigner unless you become a citizen of your country of residence.

There are those who would aspire for the European Union to become a sovereign state in its own right, replacing the member states. The European Treaties have brought this state of affairs fairly close, but it's also clear that any such structure will be about as stable as the former Yugoslavia.

Domino

so I can go out and get a flag made, invite countries to send their duly elected representatives to attend meetings, levy duties, put people and countries through a court and fine them €millions, have people moving around as they see fit without any borders, cross border duties or restrictions. Money we don't have can be given away to people for "good causes" without alot of checking.
But the people cannot vote except in the state where they were borne

Charles Lutwidge Dodgson had a name for that .......

"Tut, tut, child - everything's got a moral, if only you can find it."

Rod_ph

Hello Domino,
No, I haven't rushed out for that shredder yet but you've given me a lot of food for thought and I've generally chosen the quality route in the past e.g. German design for white goods and cars! I'm also enjoying the EU country/vote interchange of views.