use of stolen credit cards at highway toll booth
Sep 17th 2002, 4:33 am
#46
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Use of Cheques in Europe (was: use of stolen credit cards at highway toll booth)
"Evelyn Vogt Gamble (Divamanque)" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
t...
> Miguel Cruz wrote:
> >
> > But anyway, I can't think of the last time I've written a check. Among
> > people I know, it seems there's a schism - half of them are very
comfortable
> > with their online banking and wouldn't dream of writing another check,
and
> > half of them are exactly the other way around.
> Age may be a factor. A lot of us who have been around a
> while have less faith in the accuracy of our banks - or of
> the companies who keep begging us to pay online. There is
> also that incontrovertible "proof of payment" - one's
> cancelled check - which is conspicuously missing, with
> electronic payments. (Even though one now has to pay some
> banks to return one's cancelled checks, many of us consider
> it worth the expense.)
Your monthly bank statement shows a record of electronic payments; isn't
that proof of payment?
Ryan
news:[email protected]
t...
> Miguel Cruz wrote:
> >
> > But anyway, I can't think of the last time I've written a check. Among
> > people I know, it seems there's a schism - half of them are very
comfortable
> > with their online banking and wouldn't dream of writing another check,
and
> > half of them are exactly the other way around.
> Age may be a factor. A lot of us who have been around a
> while have less faith in the accuracy of our banks - or of
> the companies who keep begging us to pay online. There is
> also that incontrovertible "proof of payment" - one's
> cancelled check - which is conspicuously missing, with
> electronic payments. (Even though one now has to pay some
> banks to return one's cancelled checks, many of us consider
> it worth the expense.)
Your monthly bank statement shows a record of electronic payments; isn't
that proof of payment?
Ryan
Sep 17th 2002, 6:52 am
#47
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Use of Cheques in Europe (was: use of stolen credit cards at highway toll booth)
> > Miguel Cruz wrote:
> > >
> > > But anyway, I can't think of the last time I've written a check. Among
> > > people I know, it seems there's a schism - half of them are very
> comfortable
> > > with their online banking and wouldn't dream of writing another check,
> and
> > > half of them are exactly the other way around.
> >
> > Age may be a factor. A lot of us who have been around a
> > while have less faith in the accuracy of our banks - or of
> > the companies who keep begging us to pay online. There is
> > also that incontrovertible "proof of payment" - one's
> > cancelled check - which is conspicuously missing, with
> > electronic payments. (Even though one now has to pay some
> > banks to return one's cancelled checks, many of us consider
> > it worth the expense.)
> Your monthly bank statement shows a record of electronic payments; isn't
> that proof of payment?
> Ryan
I'd have thought so, but obviously it's the Roostar attitude "if you can't
scratch a window with it I'm not interested".
Tim.
> > >
> > > But anyway, I can't think of the last time I've written a check. Among
> > > people I know, it seems there's a schism - half of them are very
> comfortable
> > > with their online banking and wouldn't dream of writing another check,
> and
> > > half of them are exactly the other way around.
> >
> > Age may be a factor. A lot of us who have been around a
> > while have less faith in the accuracy of our banks - or of
> > the companies who keep begging us to pay online. There is
> > also that incontrovertible "proof of payment" - one's
> > cancelled check - which is conspicuously missing, with
> > electronic payments. (Even though one now has to pay some
> > banks to return one's cancelled checks, many of us consider
> > it worth the expense.)
> Your monthly bank statement shows a record of electronic payments; isn't
> that proof of payment?
> Ryan
I'd have thought so, but obviously it's the Roostar attitude "if you can't
scratch a window with it I'm not interested".
Tim.
Sep 17th 2002, 8:15 am
#48
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Use of Cheques in Europe (was: use of stolen credit cards at highway toll booth)
"Timo Valtonen" <timo.valtonen@***saunalahti.fi> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> Personal cheques have not been used in Finland since the introduction of
> bank cards some 15+ years ago. Household and business bills were paid by
> filling out a bank transfer form (part of the invoice) and sending it to
> bank. Then came telephone transfers, which were dull to perform as it was a
> painstaking job to dial all the account etc. numbers.
How is that more painstaking than entering same number on the
net?
> Now 99,9 % of business
> payments are done electronically and more than half of household bills are
> done on the internet. Some people pay bills at ATM's, few still send
> transfer forms to bank.
99.9% is an over-statement In 2001 91% of all transfers handled
by banks (I do not know if that includes wage paying) were
automated, i.e. the customer does all the manual work. This
includes paymets through ATMs, net and purchases with bank card
when the purchase is stranfered electonically. Manual methiods
inclyude payments where bank enters the information on the bank
tranfer sheet as well as manual bank card slips and cheques.
In 1992 only 57% were automated.
Wages/salaries have here been paid directly to banks for decades.
That is very handy both for the employer and the emplyee. You can
withdraw your wages even before you got to work on the pay day.
The reason for the high automation rate is the fees bank charge
for manual operations. A manual bank card slip is about 1 euro.
Manual bank transfer can be up to 6 euros. (The former is paid by
the recipient and the latetr by the payer)
Plenty of peple still gueue in banks. Many older people do that
becaue it is part of their social life. They do that even if it
cists them much. I have seen people gueue at bank with phone bill
on their hand when there is a store of the phone cpmpany shop
next door and you could pay it there without a fee.
Cheques are used only for larger sums, the average size of a
cheque was 145,000 euros in 2001. Only 600,000 cheque were
used compared to 11.6 billion bank card payments.
I consider cheques very ineffective means. It may be nice for
the payer but the recipient has to deposit it, the banlk has to
handle it. It is much niceer for the recipient if the money just
appears on his account. Also cheques can be stolen.
> Bank or credit cards are used for most on-the-spot transactions, even taxi
> fares.
Actually cash still is number one. In 2001 there were 248 million
ATM withdravals totalling 17.4 billion. There were 275 million
bank card payments totalling 11.6 billion and 110 million credit
card payments totalling 6.4 billion. So counted as euros the bank
and credit cards are slightly larger. The number of cash
paynments must be much larger than the withdravals so in that the
cash is still number one. (all sums are in euros)
The introducion of Euro has increased the use of bank cards so
things could have changed somewhat.
> The newest fad is to pay for small services by cell phones, for
> services like tram and metro tickets, car wash, parking, etc. Yesterday I
> noticed that the juke-box at my neighbourhood pub accepts only cell phone
> payments.
That is pretty much marginal and limited to small sums. The
mobile operators do not want to give you credit for your grocery
bills. When larger sums are paid with phone it requires a
special account from, which the charges are made. This IMO has no
benefits over a credit or bank card. Also not everyone carries a
cell phone. IMO a card is much simpler.
> The ammount of cash in circulation is very low, which makes the central bank
> happy. I believe more than half of the population hasn't touched a bigger
> bank note than 20 or 50 Euro.
Yes, the cash/GNP is lowest in euro zone. In 2001 it was 1.8%.
I do not think the central bank is happy with that at least it
would not be if the interest rates rose. Cash is interest free
loan. When you have 100 euro note in your hand the central bank
has made a good deal, it has loaned you 100 euro with no
interest. In the U.S. cash/GNP is very high but about 75% of the
cash is actually abroad. That makes the federal reserve happy.
There really is little need to use larger notes as one has to go
to bank to get them.
Osmo
news:<[email protected]>...
> Personal cheques have not been used in Finland since the introduction of
> bank cards some 15+ years ago. Household and business bills were paid by
> filling out a bank transfer form (part of the invoice) and sending it to
> bank. Then came telephone transfers, which were dull to perform as it was a
> painstaking job to dial all the account etc. numbers.
How is that more painstaking than entering same number on the
net?
> Now 99,9 % of business
> payments are done electronically and more than half of household bills are
> done on the internet. Some people pay bills at ATM's, few still send
> transfer forms to bank.
99.9% is an over-statement In 2001 91% of all transfers handled
by banks (I do not know if that includes wage paying) were
automated, i.e. the customer does all the manual work. This
includes paymets through ATMs, net and purchases with bank card
when the purchase is stranfered electonically. Manual methiods
inclyude payments where bank enters the information on the bank
tranfer sheet as well as manual bank card slips and cheques.
In 1992 only 57% were automated.
Wages/salaries have here been paid directly to banks for decades.
That is very handy both for the employer and the emplyee. You can
withdraw your wages even before you got to work on the pay day.
The reason for the high automation rate is the fees bank charge
for manual operations. A manual bank card slip is about 1 euro.
Manual bank transfer can be up to 6 euros. (The former is paid by
the recipient and the latetr by the payer)
Plenty of peple still gueue in banks. Many older people do that
becaue it is part of their social life. They do that even if it
cists them much. I have seen people gueue at bank with phone bill
on their hand when there is a store of the phone cpmpany shop
next door and you could pay it there without a fee.
Cheques are used only for larger sums, the average size of a
cheque was 145,000 euros in 2001. Only 600,000 cheque were
used compared to 11.6 billion bank card payments.
I consider cheques very ineffective means. It may be nice for
the payer but the recipient has to deposit it, the banlk has to
handle it. It is much niceer for the recipient if the money just
appears on his account. Also cheques can be stolen.
> Bank or credit cards are used for most on-the-spot transactions, even taxi
> fares.
Actually cash still is number one. In 2001 there were 248 million
ATM withdravals totalling 17.4 billion. There were 275 million
bank card payments totalling 11.6 billion and 110 million credit
card payments totalling 6.4 billion. So counted as euros the bank
and credit cards are slightly larger. The number of cash
paynments must be much larger than the withdravals so in that the
cash is still number one. (all sums are in euros)
The introducion of Euro has increased the use of bank cards so
things could have changed somewhat.
> The newest fad is to pay for small services by cell phones, for
> services like tram and metro tickets, car wash, parking, etc. Yesterday I
> noticed that the juke-box at my neighbourhood pub accepts only cell phone
> payments.
That is pretty much marginal and limited to small sums. The
mobile operators do not want to give you credit for your grocery
bills. When larger sums are paid with phone it requires a
special account from, which the charges are made. This IMO has no
benefits over a credit or bank card. Also not everyone carries a
cell phone. IMO a card is much simpler.
> The ammount of cash in circulation is very low, which makes the central bank
> happy. I believe more than half of the population hasn't touched a bigger
> bank note than 20 or 50 Euro.
Yes, the cash/GNP is lowest in euro zone. In 2001 it was 1.8%.
I do not think the central bank is happy with that at least it
would not be if the interest rates rose. Cash is interest free
loan. When you have 100 euro note in your hand the central bank
has made a good deal, it has loaned you 100 euro with no
interest. In the U.S. cash/GNP is very high but about 75% of the
cash is actually abroad. That makes the federal reserve happy.
There really is little need to use larger notes as one has to go
to bank to get them.
Osmo
Sep 17th 2002, 8:44 am
#49
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Use of Cheques in Europe (was: use of stolen credit cards at highway toll booth)
"Osmo Ronkanen" <[email protected]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:d0d3e7d9.0209170015-
[email protected]...
> "Timo Valtonen" <timo.valtonen@***saunalahti.fi> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> > Personal cheques have not been used in Finland since the introduction of
> > bank cards some 15+ years ago. Household and business bills were paid by
> > filling out a bank transfer form (part of the invoice) and sending it to
> > bank. Then came telephone transfers, which were dull to perform as it
was a
> > painstaking job to dial all the account etc. numbers.
> How is that more painstaking than entering same number on the
> net?
because the computer has a proper keyboard and a screen - bit fiddly getting
the numbers in on a telephone keypad.
news:d0d3e7d9.0209170015-
[email protected]...
> "Timo Valtonen" <timo.valtonen@***saunalahti.fi> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> > Personal cheques have not been used in Finland since the introduction of
> > bank cards some 15+ years ago. Household and business bills were paid by
> > filling out a bank transfer form (part of the invoice) and sending it to
> > bank. Then came telephone transfers, which were dull to perform as it
was a
> > painstaking job to dial all the account etc. numbers.
> How is that more painstaking than entering same number on the
> net?
because the computer has a proper keyboard and a screen - bit fiddly getting
the numbers in on a telephone keypad.
Sep 17th 2002, 8:50 am
#50
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Use of Cheques in Europe (was: use of stolen credit cards at highway toll booth)
> > The ammount of cash in circulation is very low, which makes the central
bank
> > happy. I believe more than half of the population hasn't touched a
bigger
> > bank note than 20 or 50 Euro.
Our cashpoints only spew out 10 or 100 euro notes.
bank
> > happy. I believe more than half of the population hasn't touched a
bigger
> > bank note than 20 or 50 Euro.
Our cashpoints only spew out 10 or 100 euro notes.
Sep 17th 2002, 4:14 pm
#51
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Use of Cheques in Europe (was: use of stolen credit cards at
One major surviving use of cheques in Britain, at least, is to pay for
things purchased from private individuals where the cheque has
significant security advantages over cash - for example the private sale
of a car.
Alan Harrison
things purchased from private individuals where the cheque has
significant security advantages over cash - for example the private sale
of a car.
Alan Harrison
Sep 18th 2002, 4:07 am
#52
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Use of Cheques in Europe (was: use of stolen credit cards at
Ryan B wrote:
> "Evelyn Vogt Gamble (Divamanque)" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> [url="news:[email protected]"]news:[email protected][-
> /url]...
> >
> >
> > Miguel Cruz wrote:
> > >
> > > But anyway, I can't think of the last time I've written a check. Among
> > > people I know, it seems there's a schism - half of them are very
> comfortable
> > > with their online banking and wouldn't dream of writing another check,
> and
> > > half of them are exactly the other way around.
> >
> > Age may be a factor. A lot of us who have been around a
> > while have less faith in the accuracy of our banks - or of
> > the companies who keep begging us to pay online. There is
> > also that incontrovertible "proof of payment" - one's
> > cancelled check - which is conspicuously missing, with
> > electronic payments. (Even though one now has to pay some
> > banks to return one's cancelled checks, many of us consider
> > it worth the expense.)
> Your monthly bank statement shows a record of electronic payments; isn't
> that proof of payment?
Not neccessarily - the payee for some of my ATM transactions
is indecipherable. Also, a number of the ATM withdrawals
show "Vons" market, whereas the market's cash register tapes
say "Pavilions". The two have the same ownership, but even
so - unless I've saved my register tape (which I seldom do,
once I've entered the amount in my check register) I'd have
no way of proving it was Pavilions, not Vons whom I'd paid.
For groceries plus cash, it's immaterial, but I'll stick to
cancelled checks for important payments, thank you.
> "Evelyn Vogt Gamble (Divamanque)" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> [url="news:[email protected]"]news:[email protected][-
> /url]...
> >
> >
> > Miguel Cruz wrote:
> > >
> > > But anyway, I can't think of the last time I've written a check. Among
> > > people I know, it seems there's a schism - half of them are very
> comfortable
> > > with their online banking and wouldn't dream of writing another check,
> and
> > > half of them are exactly the other way around.
> >
> > Age may be a factor. A lot of us who have been around a
> > while have less faith in the accuracy of our banks - or of
> > the companies who keep begging us to pay online. There is
> > also that incontrovertible "proof of payment" - one's
> > cancelled check - which is conspicuously missing, with
> > electronic payments. (Even though one now has to pay some
> > banks to return one's cancelled checks, many of us consider
> > it worth the expense.)
> Your monthly bank statement shows a record of electronic payments; isn't
> that proof of payment?
Not neccessarily - the payee for some of my ATM transactions
is indecipherable. Also, a number of the ATM withdrawals
show "Vons" market, whereas the market's cash register tapes
say "Pavilions". The two have the same ownership, but even
so - unless I've saved my register tape (which I seldom do,
once I've entered the amount in my check register) I'd have
no way of proving it was Pavilions, not Vons whom I'd paid.
For groceries plus cash, it's immaterial, but I'll stick to
cancelled checks for important payments, thank you.
Sep 19th 2002, 4:01 pm
#53
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Use of Cheques in Europe (was: use of stolen credit cards at highway toll booth)
"Tim Challenger" wrote in message news:...
> "Osmo Ronkanen" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> news:d0d3e7d9.02091700-
> [email protected] ...
> > How is that more painstaking than entering same number on the
> > net?
> because the computer has a proper keyboard and a screen - bit fiddly getting
> the numbers in on a telephone keypad.
Well get a better telephone.
Osmo
> "Osmo Ronkanen" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> news:d0d3e7d9.02091700-
> [email protected] ...
> > How is that more painstaking than entering same number on the
> > net?
> because the computer has a proper keyboard and a screen - bit fiddly getting
> the numbers in on a telephone keypad.
Well get a better telephone.
Osmo
Sep 25th 2002, 8:43 pm
#54
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: use of stolen credit cards at highway toll booth
Amazing - for the same thing happened to us two years ago when my wife's credit
cards were stolen. She lost her VISA card and her bank's ATM debit card linked
with VISA
We cancelled both immediately.
But for four weeks after that, highway tolls kept coming in on the bank's debit
card.
Every day a new charge would arrive (I watched on the bank's web site). I
didn't have to pay the charges but it annoyed me that my bank was going to have
to take the loss. No one seemed to know how to stop the use of the card at the
toll booths in France. Evidently there was no way to have the toll machines
refuse the card. And there must have been some agreement that the bank would
not hold the toll system accountable and refuse to pay them for the card's use.
After a month it stopped. Maybe the card wore out.
Sep 25th 2002, 10:05 pm
#55
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: use of stolen credit cards at highway toll booth
You need to get a better credit card. For my credit cards once I report a
theft and canceled the card, I am not responsible for any of the charges. I
don't need to deal with any fraudulent charges. The card companies handle
that. They give me a new card with new numbers.
"Steltzjr" wrote in message
news:20020925164321.02200.00-
[email protected]...
> My credit cards were stolen in Barcelona this spring. I cancelled them
> immediately with my CC company. Nevertheless charges from various toll
> booths all over Spain and France started coming in two months later (on
> all of my CCs). My bank couldn't help - VISA couldnt' help. Everybody
> referred me to someone else. I even searched the net for the responsible
> agencies of highway toll booths and send them emails.
> 1) how can it even be that authorization is being forced through on
> cancelled CC??
> and 2) who is the right agency to write to, to stop these charges??
> Please, if anybody ever had the same problem and knows what to do please
> let me know!! >>
> Amazing - for the same thing happened to us two years ago when my wife's
credit
> cards were stolen. She lost her VISA card and her bank's ATM debit card
linked
> with VISA
> We cancelled both immediately.
> But for four weeks after that, highway tolls kept coming in on the bank's
debit
> card.
> Every day a new charge would arrive (I watched on the bank's web site). I
> didn't have to pay the charges but it annoyed me that my bank was going to
have
> to take the loss. No one seemed to know how to stop the use of the card at
the
> toll booths in France. Evidently there was no way to have the toll
machines
> refuse the card. And there must have been some agreement that the bank
would
> not hold the toll system accountable and refuse to pay them for the card's
use.
> After a month it stopped. Maybe the card wore out.
theft and canceled the card, I am not responsible for any of the charges. I
don't need to deal with any fraudulent charges. The card companies handle
that. They give me a new card with new numbers.
"Steltzjr" wrote in message
news:20020925164321.02200.00-
[email protected]...
> My credit cards were stolen in Barcelona this spring. I cancelled them
> immediately with my CC company. Nevertheless charges from various toll
> booths all over Spain and France started coming in two months later (on
> all of my CCs). My bank couldn't help - VISA couldnt' help. Everybody
> referred me to someone else. I even searched the net for the responsible
> agencies of highway toll booths and send them emails.
> 1) how can it even be that authorization is being forced through on
> cancelled CC??
> and 2) who is the right agency to write to, to stop these charges??
> Please, if anybody ever had the same problem and knows what to do please
> let me know!! >>
> Amazing - for the same thing happened to us two years ago when my wife's
credit
> cards were stolen. She lost her VISA card and her bank's ATM debit card
linked
> with VISA
> We cancelled both immediately.
> But for four weeks after that, highway tolls kept coming in on the bank's
debit
> card.
> Every day a new charge would arrive (I watched on the bank's web site). I
> didn't have to pay the charges but it annoyed me that my bank was going to
have
> to take the loss. No one seemed to know how to stop the use of the card at
the
> toll booths in France. Evidently there was no way to have the toll
machines
> refuse the card. And there must have been some agreement that the bank
would
> not hold the toll system accountable and refuse to pay them for the card's
use.
> After a month it stopped. Maybe the card wore out.
Sep 26th 2002, 6:12 pm
#56
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: use of stolen credit cards at highway toll booth
I don't understand why the don't have cameras to track the users with
the card as they do in ATM machines. Not only would they stop the use
of these cards but they might actually catch some criminals.
On 25 Sep 2002 20:43:21 GMT, [email protected] (Steltzjr) wrote:
>My credit cards were stolen in Barcelona this spring. I cancelled them
>immediately with my CC company. Nevertheless charges from various toll
>booths all over Spain and France started coming in two months later (on
>all of my CCs). My bank couldn't help - VISA couldnt' help. Everybody
>referred me to someone else. I even searched the net for the responsible
>agencies of highway toll booths and send them emails.
>1) how can it even be that authorization is being forced through on
> cancelled CC??
>and 2) who is the right agency to write to, to stop these charges??
>Please, if anybody ever had the same problem and knows what to do please
>let me know!! >>
>Amazing - for the same thing happened to us two years ago when my wife's credit
>cards were stolen. She lost her VISA card and her bank's ATM debit card linked
>with VISA
>We cancelled both immediately.
>But for four weeks after that, highway tolls kept coming in on the bank's debit
>card.
>Every day a new charge would arrive (I watched on the bank's web site). I
>didn't have to pay the charges but it annoyed me that my bank was going to have
>to take the loss. No one seemed to know how to stop the use of the card at the
>toll booths in France. Evidently there was no way to have the toll machines
>refuse the card. And there must have been some agreement that the bank would
>not hold the toll system accountable and refuse to pay them for the card's use.
>After a month it stopped. Maybe the card wore out.
Emilia Bedilia
the card as they do in ATM machines. Not only would they stop the use
of these cards but they might actually catch some criminals.
On 25 Sep 2002 20:43:21 GMT, [email protected] (Steltzjr) wrote:
>My credit cards were stolen in Barcelona this spring. I cancelled them
>immediately with my CC company. Nevertheless charges from various toll
>booths all over Spain and France started coming in two months later (on
>all of my CCs). My bank couldn't help - VISA couldnt' help. Everybody
>referred me to someone else. I even searched the net for the responsible
>agencies of highway toll booths and send them emails.
>1) how can it even be that authorization is being forced through on
> cancelled CC??
>and 2) who is the right agency to write to, to stop these charges??
>Please, if anybody ever had the same problem and knows what to do please
>let me know!! >>
>Amazing - for the same thing happened to us two years ago when my wife's credit
>cards were stolen. She lost her VISA card and her bank's ATM debit card linked
>with VISA
>We cancelled both immediately.
>But for four weeks after that, highway tolls kept coming in on the bank's debit
>card.
>Every day a new charge would arrive (I watched on the bank's web site). I
>didn't have to pay the charges but it annoyed me that my bank was going to have
>to take the loss. No one seemed to know how to stop the use of the card at the
>toll booths in France. Evidently there was no way to have the toll machines
>refuse the card. And there must have been some agreement that the bank would
>not hold the toll system accountable and refuse to pay them for the card's use.
>After a month it stopped. Maybe the card wore out.
Emilia Bedilia
Sep 26th 2002, 8:08 pm
#57
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: use of stolen credit cards at highway toll booth
Open a new bank account. You need not stick to their crap service.
