angie_329

A research paper of interest to those Living in Europe by migrationwatchuk.

14. What would happen to British citizens living in the EU if the UK voted to leave? It is most likely that those already living in Europe, and EU citizens already living in the UK, would retain that right under the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties. This treaty releases parties from future obligations but does not affect rights already acquired. This means that British citizens living abroad and EU citizens living here would be unaffected. This is backed up by research by the House of Commons Library. For more on this see here.
In any case, collective expulsions are prohibited under Article 19 of the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights.
Migration Watch UK | MW354 : The British in Europe – and Vice Versa

NavyBoy

Well unless you live in France, who have not signed the accord.

angie_329

Is that the Vienna convention on the law of treaties you are referring to? Interesting! I would contact Migrationwatchuk, via their website and let them know your findings.

Cihadlo

Hi Angie

Thank you for the link but I don't believe it offers reassurance to the level of "This means that British citizens living abroad and EU citizens living here would be unaffected."

Let me explain my concern. It only refers to "Retained Rights". For our life to be viable in EU countries we will certainly need these retained rights but also some that we haven't managed to aquire yet and it's clear that under the Vienna Convention the EU countries (and UK) would be released from these future obligations after BREXIT.

I live in the Czech Republic. I am a permanent resident, work and I own property. I don't expect that I will be forced to leave, lose my job or give up my property because they will be covered under "retained rights".

I am 58 and intend to retire here. I'm too young to assert my right to the arrangements for health care in retirement or to claim a state pension based on my contributions made whilst working in several EU countries. The first one is particularly crucial to whether retirement here is viable. Private health insurance for pensioners is a no-no unless you are very rich. I might not get thrown out but I may have to leave none the less!

Have I not understood something?

Chris

angie_329

Retained rights as I understand it , mean any, as an EU citizen living in the UK or vice versa, you would have acquired later on, in the course of having lived in the UK/EU legally, before a possible Brexit. The Leave camp have confirmed this also officially. So if you live in the Czech republic and are legally registered there as a resident (if you are a UK Citizen) you will be able to have the same benefits in future you expect now, in the event of Brexit. Countries cannot be 'released' from the Vienna Convention on the law of treaties (1957) in the event of Brexit, as it is a treaty that supersedes all these issues and even EU agreements. Also practically and diplomatically it would be too difficult for countries to start depriving some legal residents now of rights in the future. This will /may only affect those who move after possible Brexit. They say negotiations to leave will take 2 years anyway!.

Cihadlo

Thanks Angie

Please, do you have a link to the Leave campaigns "official confirmation" on this subject?

Whatever they have said, they are in no position to issue anything "officially" at the moment.

Chris

angie_329

It was on TV quote , and yes I would say that migrationwatch research is more reliable than any Leave statements, as they have a track record.
In numbers' terms there are far more EU citizens in the UK than the other way round, ( data on MW site) so EU will be in a weaker position in any negotiations which would be favourable for UK people in EU probably.
Have you explored acquiring czech citizenship? I think you are nowentitled to naturalise as a czech citizen after 3 years residence as an EU citizen and the new law allows dual nationality.

MigrationOnline.cz

Red_Wine_Fairy

A word on promises from 'the leave camp'. At this moment, nobody in the leave camp is in such a position to guarantee a single thing.

Anything promise they make depends on Johnson/Gove taking power off Cameron/Osborne very shortly after any Brexit, and like anything in the future, that cannot be guaranteed, even if we can all see how Johnson/Gove want to see this played out. In the same way, the money they promise to give to the NHS and farmers is not guaranteed because they don't have access to that money! Likewise, any laws they plan in introduce depend on them firstly taking power of the country, and secondly, not forgetting expats once they have done so: looking at the promises made to Scotland to stay which were never delivered, it's not looking promising.

If a farmer (substitute for any industry or region that cannot make its way pay) doesn't get his next EU installment, and the leave camp aren't in a position to physically pay the farmer on the date he needs that installment, farmer is likely to throw in the towel and/or go bust. The leave campaign is currently using IOUs, and you can't pay your rent with just a promissory note from someone who currently has no assets with which to pay you.

Cihadlo

Yes, I have but it is actually three years residence after attaining the status of permanent resident, which I qualified for about 15 months ago after 5 years continuous residence.

There is also a language test that is pretty tough at B1 level and a citizenship exam. I have begun studying for the language exam and might just pass it on a good day.

angie_329

Well good luck with that!

OldPro

Retained rights will do nothing for say a retiree who moved from the UK to Spain in the last year or two. As Cihadlo notes, you need 5 years continuous residence to qualify for Permanent Resident status as an EU national. Without those 5 years of residency there is no 'retained right' to residency.

I came to this forum expecting to find all kinds of posts on Brexit and how it will affect people today. Instead all I find one thread(not this one) regarding retirement to Portugal. Maybe everyone else is in shock.

You don't have to wait till the official exit date to know what the outcome is going to be for some things like residency and healthcare. For anyone who does not have Permanent Resident status (or has at least applied for it in which case I would suspect there will be some leniency shown), what will apply is the same as for any other 'non-EU' national.

Cihadlo

OldPro

I think we can have some grounds for optimism on this subject. The UK will obviously have an interest in negotiating the status of its citizens in the EU but the same is true for the EU27 and their people in the UK. To some extent, both sides will have common interests and objectives in these negotiations and will be looking for similar protections and rights for their nationals

Prominent members of the Leave campaign (I realise they are not the Government) have already said that all EU citizens in the UK by the referendum date will be given permanent leave to remain - if this is actually offered, I would expect that it would be a reciprocal arrangement and something similar would apply to UK citizens in the EU.

Chris

OldPro

I think you may have 'some' grounds for optimism but I would be very wary of just what is meant by statements like, 'EU citizens in the UK by the referendum date will be given permanent leave to remain'.

That is all to easily turned into, 'oh, you didn't understand, that means all those who had permanent residency already, not those who just got off the Dover ferry the day before the referendum.' On the EU side, the rule is quite clear. EU citizens have to have 5 years residency to then apply for Permanent Residency in another EU country.

As always Cihadlo it pays to plan for the worst while hoping for the best. If I were someone who will be affected by this on either side, I would be planning for having to leave if I will have had less than 5 years residency by the eventual leave date. It's easy to figure out what to do if things go better than expected, but much harder to deal with if things go worse than expected.

Should I take it that you are one of those who will have been living in Spain for less than 5 years possibly when the official leave date arrives? If you will have been there more than 5 years, I think your optimism is not unreasonable. If it will be less than 5 years, I think you need to plan based on pessimism and continuing to be hopeful then won't hurt you.

bissnitzbarbie

I am a bit disappointed how little is going on on the Forum. So here goes. I am brit, married to a German with 4 kids under age 10, and have lived in Germany continuously for more than 10 years. I am not worried about right to remain as obviously I can apply for permanent residency status should that be required. I agree that planning needs to be based on worst case scenarios. I have listened avidly to political news, prime ministers question time and find neither reassurance nor any clear commitment to the British Nationals who are the collateral damage of this incomprehensible decision. Brexit however affects fundementally how we can plan our future. I have just completed a professional refresher course for women returners to work - EU funded, I have just applied for a small business loan, my bank has informed me (unofficially of course) that because of "uncertainties" it would be easier for them to approve it if I were to apply for a German passport. Because I was the one with the job when we moved Uk-Germany the house is in my name - and so it goes on. In 2 years time i will lose my right to vote in the UK even though decisions made there will profoundly affect my more than ever before. I feel let down, vulnerable and above all abandoned by the country of my birth. Its a sad place to be.

BritInParis

Naturalise as a German citizen, problem solved. I'm surprised you haven't done so already to be honest.