Mamamarch

**Sorry! Title should be 'without parents' MARRIAGE certificate'.**

Maybe a longshot, but I'm hoping somebody could help here!

Husband is a British Citizen (born in Australia to UK-born parents). We're moving to the UK soonish (probably January) for a job. He's being offered the job as a British citizen.

So he's applying for his first British passport. We've ordered his father's birth certificate from the UK but also need his parents' marriage certificate - they were married in Australia. Husband is estranged from his parents and the Victorian BMD registry has informed us that there is absolutely no way around needing their permission to access the marriage certificate. None. At all.

I've also rung the crazily expensive British High Commission helpline in NZ. The man I spoke to seemed surprised that husband wasn't able to access his parents' marriage certificate, but confirmed that it is definitely required. He did say that if we can't track them down, or if they refuse to sign the application form (quite likely) then husband could try to submit the UK passport application and enclose a letter explaining why it's not possible to provide the marriage certificate, but he seemed rather doubtful as to whether that would be able to be processed. I was going to email, but they don't respond to email enquiries, apparently.

From what I've read from searching here, it might be better for husband to apply for a certificate of entitlement to right of abode. Same requirements but harder for them to turn down, right? I'm thinking that it surely can't be legal for them to deny recognition of citizenship purely because they're requesting a piece of ID that we legally cannot obtain. Or would we have to take husband's parents to court?!

Has anyone here been through anything similar? Were you able to successfully apply for a UK passport without a supporting document? If you were refused, were you able to get a certificate of entitlement to ROA instead? It's so frustrating that husband is a UK citizen but can't prove it because his parents are abusive morons.

Freaking out just a touch here. We don't have time for this! It was supposed to be simple! *headdesk*

islandwoman120

Have you tried looking at the following websites:

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/about/collection.htm
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Dl1/Directories/DG_10011973
http://www.ips.gov.uk/cps/rde/xchg/i.../hs.xsl/55.htm
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Governme...ents/index.htm

It is my understanding that a number of overseas records are held in the National Archives.

Failing that, you may need to apply directly to the Australian records people: http://www.bdm.dotag.wa.gov.au/M/mar...2981-7860-8859

You do not state where in Australia your inlaws were married, so using the information given on the link above for Western Australia Department of the Attorney General, if your husband can prove that he needs access to the records for a legal need (a passport should be a legal need) then under Family Access, it states the following:
Child of marriage
Other relative
Restricted, unless the applicant can provide:
Written authority from the bride or groom named in the certificate; or
Evidence that both the bride and groom named in the certificate are deceased; or
Evidence that the certificate is required for some legal right or entitlement
(my emphasis)

Good luck.

JAJ

Is this UK born parents?
If his mother is UK born he can apply based on her status without needing to show parents were married. Exact process depends on whether he was born before 1983.

If you really mean that only the father is UK born
Victoria has one of the worst so-called "privacy" policies in Australia - they don't even let parents get copies of their adult children's birth certificates (how pointless is that?).

You could make a formal application to the Registrar asking for discretion, and if the Registrar says no, then appeal to the VCAT:
http://online.justice.vic.gov.au/CA2...Access+policy~

If you want to do this then you should find a Victoria legal practitioner who has experience with VCAT cases.


If only the father is UK-born then evidence of marriage is needed because prior to 1 July 2006, an unmarried father did not count for British nationality purposes. Is there any other evidence of the marriage out there?

Pollyana

title updated for you

Mamamarch

Thanks islandwoman & JAJ for the replies.

Unfortunately, DH's parents were married in Victoria. The registry has confirmed that there is no way on earth (without a subpoena) that he can access his parents' marriage certificate without their permission before they're dead or 60 years has elapsed.

We've attempted contact with DH's parents to ask for their permission, but they're not responding at all.

DH's (Victorian) birth certificate does have his parents' date and location of marriage on it. We're hoping that, with a stat dec stating that we can't legally access the marriage certificate, that might be okay. How flexible are they likely to be with passport applications? Our experience with the passport interviewing woman at the PO for Australian passports makes us think that they just wouldn't accept it in the first place.

DH's mother was born in the UK, too, but he was born before 1983, so he'd have to do the whole application thing and we've been told that takes around 6 months. And we don't have that long! Although the person I spoke to sounded unsure. Has anyone applied using the UKM form? How long did it take to be approved?

Thanks again for the advice.

And thanks for changing the title, Pollyanna!

Mamamarch

Oh my goodness, I love this site!

I was trawling through posts about ROA, thinking that this would be DH's best option, when I came across a post that has totally changed things.

Both DH's parents were born in Northern Ireland, so if I'm understanding correctly, this makes DH an Irish citizen, and all he needs to apply for that passport is his own birth certificate and either of his parents' birth certificates. I hope.

Very excited here! JAJ, I think it was you who posted the comment that brought all this on. Thank you - I think I love you a little bit now.

Mallory

People born in NI are British citizens. You are thinking of the Republic of Ireland.

My daughter was born before 1983 and applied for citizenship several years ago. From my memory it took slightly under 3 months to go through. It cost her around 520 pounds. She only needed my birth cert and old pp, not marriage cert, but then I was married in England. She was born in Germany. We live in USA.

Of course, if you could get it through his father's side, he wouldn't need to apply for citizenship and pay 520 pounds. He could just apply for a passport. It's a bummer for your hubby. Good luck.

Picnic

The Republic of Ireland does not recognize Ulster (N. Ireland) and considers anyone born on the island before 2005 to be an Irish citizen.

It may be possible for the OP's husband to claim citizenship and I would suggest contacting the nearest Irish Consulate for clarification.

JAJ

Part of Ulster is in the Republic of Ireland. As regards the border, the ROI does accept the existence of Northern Ireland as a separate entity but chooses to offer its citizenship to those born in Northern Ireland who want it (with restrictions for those born in 2005 or later).

JAJ

Did you read what you were told? If you appeal to the VCAT, and the Tribunal rules in your favour, they have to do what the Tribunal says. Whether they like it or not.

Although I would look at UKM in preference.

I wouldn't apply for a British passport if your claim to British citizenship is based on such marginal evidence. It is too easy for them to refuse on a whim and there is no right of appeal.



UKM takes about 2 months normally, a little longer for those outside the UK.

I would instead suggest that you go down the Right of Abode route. Your husband already has Right of Abode based on his mother (this is possible for Australian citizens born before 1983 with UK born mothers). He only needs to show proof that his mother was UK born and prove the family link. Is her maiden name shown on his Victoria birth certificate?

http://britishexpats.com/wiki/Right_...United_Kingdom

This is likely to be the quickest way to get to the United Kingdom. Details at: http://www.ukvisas.gov.uk

If his Australian passport is expiring anytime soon, he should renew it before applying for Right of Abode.

Irish citizenship
He should also definitely apply for an Irish passport. The Irish have allowed mothers to pass on citizenship since 1956 (retrospectively) and also in 1987 changed the law on unmarried fathers (again, retrospectively) so although the Irish authorities may be unhappy about the lack of a parental marriage certificate they cannot legally refuse a passport on that basis. The Irish also have a legislative basis for passports so cannot refuse on a whim.

British citizenship
Long term, it would still be best to be a British citizen if the plan is to live in the UK. Too much going on in the world to rely on the goodwill extended currently to non-Britons.

Once he's in the UK he should put together a dossier of as much evidence as possible of his parent's marriage, including:

- his own birth certificate;
- a refusal letter from the Victoria marriage registry;
- any other evidence he can think of, such as statutory declarations from anyone else who knows of the parent's marriage

Once all this is put together, he can pay GBP75 and apply for a Nationality Status Certificate from the Home Office:
http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/br...utcitizenship/

(form and guide NS).

If the Home Office approve, he can then use the certificate to deal with the Passport Office. If they reject the application, he has the choice between going to court or applying for registration as a British citizen using form UKM.

Or he can just apply directly for UKM if he prefers.

Irish citizenship - your children
Are you aware that your children are not Irish citizens, but can be registered as Irish citizens if you make an application? At least, unless the law changes.

Write to your Victoria state representatives?
It won't help you in the short term but it might help others if you can interest your Victoria state representatives in changing the policy at the state birth register to allow children get hold of parent's documentation (and vice versa) if they can show a legitimate reason for it.

Mamamarch

So I called up the Irish Embassy this morning and they've confirmed that he meets the criteria for citizenship and are sending out a passport application form in the mail.

So, like you've suggested JAJ, we're thinking that he'll apply for both that and an ROA certificate, then pursue the British passport once we're there. We were concerned that there would be some kind of beauracratic conflict if he were to apply for ROA based on Commonwealth citizenship & his mother's birthplace, when he could make other claims, so thanks for clarifying that it would be okay for him to do this. (Actually, that concern sounds ridiculous written down, but it made sense in my head).

Actually, thanks for all your advice, JAJ. There is a whole lot of misinformation out there on these kind of issues, so it's really great to come across someone who not only knows what they're talking about, but who's willing to help out others.

Re: VCAT - I did see that advice first time round, but from our previous (miserable) experience with VCAT on a completely different matter, wasn't too hopeful that we'd get any result from that route within the next year or so! If it came to it, we would do it, though. And it's a good idea to write to someone about it. Will do.

JAJ

He already has both ROA and Irish citizenship - it's just a question of applying for evidence of same. Different countries, etc.

Either one is sufficient to live in the UK. Given your short timescale, probably worth applying for both. Perhaps time to order more copies of parents birth certificates (both parents - and I would order multiple copies in case the law in that part of the UK becomes like Victoria).

If he gets the ROA stamp in his Australian passport, then as long as he gets a Home Office document proving he's a British citizen (either a status certificate or a registration certificate from UKM) he doesn't really need a British passport. In fact, since 2006, people with ROA stamps who apply for British passports are supposed to have their ROA stamp cancelled.

So perhaps document his British citizenship after getting to the UK, and then apply for a British passport when the ROA stamp expires.



By the way, if you were born in the UK, have you got your own Australian citizenship?