jemima55

Angela, your friends account is so detailed and she sounds really on top of it all!
What is the "group" she talks about? It sounds like a number of people who are doing the same thing.
Reading this makes me feel sad and indignant all over again. I can't believe such an inhumane law and can only think there is not more noise about it because it affects a really small number of people, albeit in a quite devastating way.
And if its only a small number, then why have it in the first place?
It seems cack handed to me.
I wish you, and your friend success in getting back to your own country.

AngelaV

H, you will have to work for 12 hours per weeks for a minimum of 3 months. I said 10 weeks in an earlier post as some people have gone to the UK after 10 weeks but a couple were refused a family permit yesterday as seemingly her job seemed transient so I would possibly err on the side of caution and say a minimum of 3 months or more.

I don't know about Ceuto/Meliliya, just make sure they are part of Europe and the European Union otherwise it won't count.

AngelaV

Thanks Jemima, the group is on Facebook. It is a group of people who have come together to share experiences and research they have done on the Surinder Singh route. You will find a lot of passion for raising awareness and helping those who are new to this.

Here is the link again:

http://www.facebook.com/groups/47753..._comment_reply

richard2013

greetings Angela. thank you for your reply. would you interpret the following to mean that ceuta is part of the eu?

quote:

Ceuta is part of the territory of the European Union. The city was a free port before Spain joined the European Union in 1986. Now it has a low-tax system within the European Monetary System. As of 2006, its population was 75,861.

DaveLovesDee

Chapter 3 here states;

In which countries can you exercise this right?

You can benefit from these rights in the EU…
You can benefit from the right to move and reside freely in any EU country. This includes the Azores, Madeira (Portugal), the Ǻland Islands (Finland), the Canary Islands, Ceuta and Melilla (Spain) and the French overseas departments. It also applies to Gibraltar.

It does not apply to the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man, the Faeroe Islands (Denmark) or to overseas countries and territories.
in Iceland, Lichtenstein and Norway…

You can also benefit from the right in Iceland, Lichtenstein and Norway, because these countries participate in the European Economic Area. Similarly, nationals of these three countries can move and reside freely within the European Union and have certain rights in Switzerland.

The Directive does not apply in relation to Switzerland. However, you can enjoy certain rights in Switzerland on the basis of the 1999 EU-Swiss Agreement on Free Movement of Persons and the Protocols. These rights are more limited than those granted under the Directive.

As I understand it, you have to live and work in the same country.

richard2013

thank you for your reply dave.

richard2013

just to make things easier for me, the work that i do has to be CONTRACTED work?

DaveLovesDee

Contracted can mean a contract of employment, or contracted for your services )if you are self-employed there). As far as I understand it, you'll need something to show UKBA that your employment/self-employment is for/will be longer than x weeks.

AngelaV

Surinder Singh for newbies - steps to a happier life.

Shared for public education and fair use.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/162770836/...gh-for-Newbies

AngelaV

C& D Visas:

A topic that is coming up recently is applications for C & D Visas. It is becoming clear that Ireland is authorizing C visas now (3 months) instead of D Visas (long term).

A couple of things I want to point out, The Freedom of Movement Directive does not come into play until you arrive in Ireland (or other member state). Therefore, you will have to follow the rules of the visa application and submit proof requested, even if it does not correspond with the Directive rules. As soon as you arrive at the immigration desk in Ireland, the rules of the Directive take over.

The requirements seem to be different for each country and individual circumstances but it seems that if you and your spouse live apart and your spouse will arrive in Ireland without you, you will have to provide proof that you will be in Ireland when your spouse arrives by means of a flights ticket confirming when you will arrive in Ireland or proof of accommodation.

Maltoo

thank you, really considering this route, keeping all options open

AngelaV

Recently, the Home Office was challenged for the UKBE removing the following clause from their website:

"It does not matter if the only reason the British national went to another Member State was to exercise an economic Treaty right was so that he / she could come back to the UK with his / her family members under EC law"

Their response is interesting:

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/reque...2020130905.pdf


Have a look at the link within the mail detailing what the Home Office find not acceptable for the ss route. It may just answer a few questions as to what is within the boundaries of the Directive.

Maltoo

So what are they saying? that if you go thru SS you will not be given your Visas?

DaveLovesDee

From the link quoted in the Home Office reply:
The defining characteristics of the line between genuine and abusive use of Community law should be based on the assessment of whether the exercise of Community rights in a Member Cases C-110/99 Emsland-Stärke (para 54) and C-215/03 Oulane (para 56) EN 18 EN State from which the EU citizens and their family members return was genuine and effective.
In such case, EU citizens and their families are protected by Community law on free movement of persons. This assessment can only be made on a case-by-case basis. If, in a concrete case of return, the use of Community rights was genuine and effective, the Member State of origin should not inquire into the personal motives that triggered the previous move.

I believe the above means that if you've genuinely worked and lived in another EU country, the Home Office still can't stop you bringing in your non-EU spouse. They also cannot assume everyone is avoiding the immigration rules by doing so, and must assess each case on it's own merits.

When necessary, Member States may define a set of indicative criteria to assess whether residence in the host Member State was genuine and effective. National authorities may in particular take into account the following factors:
• the circumstances under which the EU citizen concerned moved to the host Member State (previous unsuccessful attempts to acquire residence for a third country spouse under national law, job offer in the host Member State, capacity in which the EU citizen resides in the host Member State);
• degree of effectiveness and genuineness of residence in the host Member State (envisaged and actual residence in the host Member State, efforts made to establish in the host Member State, including national registration formalities and securing accommodation, enrolling children at an educational establishment);
• circumstances under which the EU citizen concerned moved back home (return immediately after marrying a third country national in another Member State).

The above criteria should be considered possible triggers for investigation, without any automatic inferences from results or subsequent investigations. In assessing whether the exercise of the right to move and reside freely in another Member State of the EU was genuine and effective, national authorities may not rely on a sole attribute but must pay due attention to all the circumstances of the individual case. They must assess the conduct of persons concerned in the light of the objectives pursued by Community law and act on the basis of objective evidence

It seems that the Home Office can't refuse you automatically but can use the above to consider investigation.

Further to the above, I'd suggest that if your non-EU spouse has been issued with a deportation order or denied a settlement visa, the Government would probably investigate your use of the SS route, but I also suggest that in those cases, working for 6-12 months would counter that by showing a genuine intention to exercise treaty rights.

AngelaV

It doesn't mean that that you won't be given a visa but they seem to have put procedures in place to ward off those who don't follow the rules and cut corners in order to do the ss route.

My advice is to do it by the book. If corners are taken, the Home Office can claim it was done fraudulently and the visa can be refused on that basis. If you do it correctly, you can't be refused as you will have followed the guidelines provided in the Directive.

An example of cause for refusal on the basis of fraud might be:

The UK citizen and partner move to Ireland for a few weeks to rent a room, register PPS, open an account, set up self-employment and go through the motions of "residing". They then go back to the UK and get on with their lives whilst living a ghost life in Ireland.

If they were to investigate, they might realize that there was no regular economic activity in Ireland by means of shopping etc. This would be classed as fraudulent as you must reside and work as a couple in the member state and could be cause for refusal.

However say a family move to Ireland, rent house, set up PPS, bank account, register company, place children in school and can prove economic activity both in a personal and professional capacity, I can't see that there would be a base for refusal.

I wouldn't worry too much about this but I do believe that it's definitely not worth the risk to do this unless you plan to do it by the book.