sun_burn

I was born in India in the late 1970s, and am presently a US resident with a green card for a decade. Yes I know I'm eligible to naturalize as a US citizen, but I haven't bothered, and that's another story...

My mother was born in UK (London) in the mid 1950s, to Indian parents (grandpa was a businessman working there for a while). She returned to India in her childhood and has been resident in India since.

Recently, I applied for a business visa to UK (the first ever time I've visited UK), and received the visa, but was also told by someone at work (a British national) that my circumstances suggest I'm 'eligible for UK citizenship by descent'. Is that actually the case ?

I'm told that until the early 1980s, anyone born in UK is a citizen by birth, even if they relinquish it later, and that therefore they're eligible to transmit citizenship by descent to a child, i.e. me. Is that the case ?

Even if it were true, I'd find it quite difficult to apply anyway. I'm not quite sure what happens to my green card if I give up Indian citizenship, which I'd have to if I acquired a British passport. It's all quite odd, applying for a visa and being told I might be a citizen instead.

HKG3

Your mother is a British Citizen at birth as she was born in the UK before 1983. You are entitle to register as a British Citizen if at the time of your birth in the late 1970s, your mother was still a British Citizen. Have a look at the link below for details -

https://www.gov.uk/register-british-...british-mother

You will need to fill in a UKM form to apply for British Citizenship.

The UK allows people to hold dual nationality.

Did your mother apply to the UK Home Office to give up her own British Citizenship?

Please note that if you receive your British Citizenship using the UKM form, you will be given British Citizenship by descent. This means that you cannot automatically pass on your British Citizenship to your children born outside of the UK.

sun_burn

I do not know if my mother held British citizenship at the time of my birth. Probably not, since she left UK more than 15 years before my birth. Does that make a difference ? Since my mom had no ties to UK since the 1960s, and I was born in the late 70s, there was never a question that I might be British, until it was suggested recently that I might be wrong.

India doesn't permit dual citizenship. I don't know the details of how and when she relinquished her British citizenship, though I know that she was given UK visitor visas without any hassle once her place of birth was acknowledged.

Until recently, her place of birth was just a cool piece of family trivia, and didn't seem to matter to anything. It seems odd that just the fact that she was British by birth might entitle me to British citizenship by descent, even if she most probably wasn't one when I was born.

BritInParis

You are not currently a British citizen. British women were unable to automatically pass on their citizenship to their children who were born before 1983 but, as a Commonwealth citizen, you do have Right of Abode in the UK through your mother which means that your current visa is null and void. As India does not permit dual nationality your best course of action is to obtain your Certificate to Entitlement to the Right of Abode. This will permit you to live and work in the UK as if you were a British citizen and is valid until your passport expires.

https://www.gov.uk/right-of-abode

However if your mother formally renounced her British citizenship with the Home Office before you were born then you will have no entitlement.

sun_burn

Thanks! "Commonwealth citizen" ? Admittedly us Indians really don't keep track of that notion much at all, except when we're briefly reminded when the CWG rolls around every 4 years

Apparently my mother has no recollection of formally relinquishing anything with the British government. She simply met Indian residency criterion after her return to India in her childhood, and also had ancestry via both parents born in then British-dominion India.

A further quirk is that my father was born in 1946, i.e. in pre-independence India. I have no idea if that accords him British citizenship by birth. My paternal grandfather was in the British Indian Army in the middle east/africa during WW2 and my dad was a postwar returnee baby born prior to India's independence in 1947.

On my part, I'm primarily concerned about not being held up at Heathrow because my (company paid) business visitor visa turns out magically void.

BritInParis

In that case it doesn't sound as if your mother renounced her British citizenship which means you have Right of Abode in the UK. Obtaining COE would therefore be the safest and best option. You will need your full birth certificate and your mother's full birth certificate. You can order a copy of your mother's birth certificate from the GRO for a small fee. Use FreeBMD to search for the registration district, volume and page number first in order to speed up the process.

sun_burn

Thank you! She does indeed show up in the birth register on FreeBMD, as does her sister, my aunt.

Is there also a similar site that lets you check if someone has formally renounced citizenship, and when ?

BritInParis

You could try the National Archives.

Certificates R6: renunciation of citizenship under section 19 | The National Archives

sun_burn

Thank you ! I couldn’t really find anything related to my moms renunciation record there - if there’s one . As it stands we’ve no document of her renunciation . Her original UK passport may be around somewhere .

On a separate track, if I naturalize as a US citizen , do I understand right that I could actually file a UKM form, since a US citizenship doesn’t preclude having another ?

BritInParis

From what you've said so far it does appear unlikely that your mother ever renounce her British citizenship. Unless she filed an application to renounce from India as an adult I would suggest it is very likely that she remains a British citizen.

Neither the US nor the UK restrict dual citizenship so if you were happy to give up your Indian citizenship to gain US citizenship then there would be no drawback to then filing Form UKM and obtaining your British citizenship and passport.

sun_burn

From talking to her, this is a result of two things:
a) There's not much of a notion of commonwealth citizenship in India. It's not really in our mindspace, so they were not aware that there was any remnant claim to British citizenship by birth. Jus solis is not known in India.
b) They were under the impression that since they had Indian parents and were in India, they just 'became Indian', and the concept of relinquishing something formally didn't register, since we don't have a concept of dual nationality.

However, the UK does, but they didn't look at it from that perspective. So it seems, not formally relinquishing anything kept her UK citizenship active, if I'm right.
Thanks for confirming this. I'm considering it, since the cost of naturalization and renewing my green card aren't a lot different.

BritInParis

Neither is there in the UK. Commonwealth citizenship simply means that your country of citizenship is a member of the Commonwealth. Your mother would have been both automatically a British citizen and an Indian citizen at birth; British by birth and Indian by descent. She didn't need to register to become British as she became British by virtue of her place of birth. Your eligibility to register as a British citizen is due to retrospective removal of gender basis within British nationality law. If it had been your father who had been born in the UK then you would already be British.

Unless your mother made a formal application to the Home Office to renounce her British citizenship then she remains a British citizen.

You're welcome.

sun_burn

Yes, that's exactly where the confusion lay. Seen from an Indian perspective, there's no possible British claim to her being a citizen of UK, since she's an Indian citizen at birth, so there's nothing to relinquish as such.

An update to Indian citizenship law in 2010 makes formally relinquishing Indian citizenship a legal requirement if one acquires another, not merely an obligation. The immigration authorities check for the absence of stamps vs claimed travel to catch those trying to run under the radar.

However, Indian law does not obligate you to go relinquish another citizenship you had because you acquired Indian one by any means, since that's just one's remnant obligation to another country. By Indian law my mom technically isn't British since she has Indian citizenship by descent at birth. That's how we always saw her - 'born in UK', not 'UK citizen'. On the other hand, according to British law, she's both

That was my initial confusion too, trying to correct my colleague 'no she isn't a citizen, she was just born here but had Indian parents so she's Indian by descent', while he insisted that no, by British law she's British too. It took me a while to grasp that the two countries had very different perspectives on her status.

Yes, this has become rather interesting, since my mom and her sister are technically still British citizens by birth, and my two cousins (aunt's kids) and I are eligible to register for RoA at least.

However I'm not sure what to do at this point - naturalize and pursue UKM in parallel, or first get a CoE for RoA on my Indian passport now and later convert that to a British passport if/when I pursue naturalization. I'm not sure the Brexit process will or will not suddenly cause changes in UK nationality law.

spouse of scouse

I can't think of one reason to suspect that Brexit will have any effect on your situation.

sun_burn

I had a chance to talk to my mom over the holidays, and have a short comment and couple of questions. My mom's clearly never relinquished anything, and was clueless as to even being a British citizen, until I showed her the relevant gov.uk website. I have her birth certificate from GRO.

I also have a certified copy of mine. However, it's about 12 years old, dating back to when I'd provided it for my green application. Is a newer one recommended ? It's the usual kind on stamp paper with an attestation by a gazetted officer.

Since my mother's married name is listed on my BC, is it required that I provide a certified copy of my parents' marriage certificate for this ? Or some similarly valid document showing the person's name changed on account of marriage ?