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British citizen living abroad? Non-EEA spouse? This may affect you!

British citizen living abroad? Non-EEA spouse? This may affect you!

Old Dec 27th 2012, 3:25 pm
  #1066  
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Default Re: British citizen living abroad? Non-EEA spouse? This may affect you!

Originally Posted by WEBlue
Such sensible words from the journalist who wrote the article (but who is uncredited):

This is what makes me so angry about this law. It unfairly targets the young couples (and many older ones too).
Yes. It is categorically unfair. My husband and I have to move to another country in order to be together. This means that he must close his business (which isn't doing that great due to the economy - he sells luxury items), sell or rent out his house and leave his children for an indefinite period of time until and IF we are able to return to the UK and build our lives together. We'll probably move to another European country so that at least visiting his children somewhat regularly is a feasible option. America is just too far to maintain any kind of parental relationship whatsoever...

I attended law school and am currently a teacher, which I do remotely and can work from anywhere. My income and education levels are not accounted for in the current scheme. He is a small business owner, albeit not "successful" in the monetary terms in which UK government seems to define success. But he's supported himself and his children for the past 20 years doing what he does, has never taken any benefits and works very hard. We are both very disenchanted with the one-size-fits all immigration policy. It's quite a sad time when a father and husband is forced to choose between his wife or his children and any compromises mean that he must be absent from one or both.
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Old Dec 27th 2012, 3:30 pm
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Default Re: British citizen living abroad? Non-EEA spouse? This may affect you!

Originally Posted by englishguygoinghome
Technically an EEA permit needs insurance. In reality you will have compulsory insurance in your EU country of residence, this will provide an EHIC which gives you free cover under the NHS. If you are relocating on an EEA family permit then you would pass the residency test from day 1 and be covered on the NHS.
The countries that we have been looking into also require a comprehensive sickness policy for non-EEA spouses. I did not find any information indicating that I would qualify for any compulsory in-country insurance plans. Only that I must have and maintain comprehensive sickness insurance during my time there. The same would go for my husband, who is a British citizen, although, he may be able to apply for the EHIC which would cover him there.
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Old Dec 27th 2012, 6:18 pm
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Default Re: British citizen living abroad? Non-EEA spouse? This may affect you!

Originally Posted by alliekat
Yes. It is categorically unfair. My husband and I have to move to another country in order to be together. This means that he must close his business (which isn't doing that great due to the economy - he sells luxury items),
If he is going to find work in another EEA country, then why not find a job in the UK, so that he can sponser you? That way you could enter under the safer UK immigration rules (which won't change once you are on them) and with a spouse visa you will have access to the NHS.

Originally Posted by alliekat
sell or rent out his house
Let out his house for just a few months? Is it worth the cost; even if he can find a tenant who is willing to only rent for just a very short time? Your husband will need his mortgage lenders permission to let out the property. Then he will need to buy landlords insurance (buildings and contents). Without the lenders permission, his insurance may be void in the event of a claim.

Then when he gets the lenders permission, he will need an annual gas safety certificate; an EPC; join one of the government backed deposit schemes to put the tenant's deposit in etc. Even if he just lets to a friend, he will still need all of the above as it is required by law i.e. no gas safety certificate is a maximum 5K fine and/or 6 months in jail; unlimited if the case goes to Country Court.

Plus there is also HMRC, who will require him to tell them that he lets out a property and lives overseas: or else his letting agent or tenant will have to deduct your husband's tax from the rent and pay it to HMRC.

It seems a lot of expense to let a property for a short while.

Originally Posted by alliekat
He is a small business owner, albeit not "successful" in the monetary terms in which UK government seems to define success. But he's supported himself and his children for the past 20 years doing what he does, has never taken any benefits and works very hard.
Are you sure he has never claimed benefits? Never claimed Child Benefit? And; as you said his business is not very successful; Child Tax Credits and Working Tax Credits? The're all benefits.

Another thing to calculate too maybe, is that if he is still claiming the welfare payments Tax Credits, don't forget that they are getting phased out and will become part of the new Universal Credit. Under Universal Credit rules, welfare will no longer prop up a failing business (as Tax Credits did). UC is being phased in for existing welfare claimants, but new claimants will go straight onto UC once UC starts. If he is claiming tax credits now, was he intending to just start another Working Tax Credits claim when he returns to the UK? He might find he goes straight onto Universal Credit.

Last edited by formula; Dec 27th 2012 at 6:57 pm.
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Old Dec 27th 2012, 7:00 pm
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Default Re: British citizen living abroad? Non-EEA spouse? This may affect you!

Originally Posted by formula
If he is going to find work in another EEA country, then why not find a job in the UK, so that he can sponser you? That way you could enter under the safer UK immigration rules (which won't change once you are on them) and with a spouse visa you will have access to the NHS.
Good in theory. First he'd have to find something. He's got experience in only one trade. We've looked for jobs in and around the London area in his profession. They don't pay enough. Even with all of his experience, he'd have to start somewhere near the bottom. Plus, we'd have to wait at least another year to reunite.

Let out his house for just a few months?
We're leaning toward selling his house. He's got significant equity in it, and if something should change or make it impossible to go back to the UK on the EEA route, then at least we'd have had enough savings in the bank for at least 6 months in order to meet the financial requirements.



Are you sure he has never claimed benefits? Never claimed Child Benefit? And; as you said his business is not very successful; Child Tax Credits and Working Tax Credits? The're all benefits.

Another thing to calculate too maybe, is that if he is still claiming the welfare payments Tax Credits, don't forget that they are getting phased out and will become part of the new Universal Credit. Under Universal Credit rules, welfare will no longer prop up a failing business (as Tax Credits did). UC is being phased in for current claimants, but new claims will go straight onto UC once UC starts. If he is claiming tax credits now, was he intending to just start another Working Tax Credits claim when he returns to the UK? He might find he goes straight onto Universal Credit.
I have no idea what, if any credits he's ever taken regarding his taxes. I don't know how they work, but if child credit is only permitted to be taken by one parent, I would assume that his ex has taken that credit. I don't know about working tax credits or whether he's taken them. I only know that he's taken allowable deductions for expenses and what not. His accountant takes care of his taxes.
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Old Dec 27th 2012, 7:45 pm
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Default Re: British citizen living abroad? Non-EEA spouse? This may affect you!

Originally Posted by alliekat
We've looked for jobs in and around the London area in his profession. They don't pay enough. Even with all of his experience, he'd have to start somewhere near the bottom. Plus, we'd have to wait at least another year to reunite.
He can work at more than one job, any job/s, to sponsor you. The minimum wage he would earn is £6.19 per hour. It will be 6 months before he can afford to sponsor you, not a year.

It has to be safer (for your route to stay in the UK ) and cheaper (healthcare costs) than using any EEA laws. Plus he could keep his house and have somewhere for you both to live. For your spouse visa renewal, you can use both his and your wages. As you can work on a spouse visa, he will only need to work for 6 months to get your visa; then you would need to work if he stops, to meet the required income for a visa renewal.


Originally Posted by alliekat
I have no idea what, if any credits he's ever taken regarding his taxes. I don't know how they work, but if child credit is only permitted to be taken by one parent, I would assume that his ex has taken that credit. I don't know about working tax credits or whether he's taken them. I only know that he's taken allowable deductions for expenses and what not. His accountant takes care of his taxes.
The name "Tax Credits" are confusing as they are nothing to do with taxes that we pay. Tax Credits are welfare payments; for those that can't afford to keep themselves (*Working Tax Credits) or their children (Child Tax Credits). They came into the welfare system about 10 years ago and have been a disaster as they encouraged some people to use welfare as a lifestyle choice; hence why they are going. Tax Credits are the UKs 3rd most expensive welfare payment.

You said you believed your husband had raised his children without claiming benefits, which is why I pointed out that he had claimed benefits. He would have claimed at least Child Benefit and (from what you have said about his business) it seems his children would have needed Child Tax Credits. Possibly he is also claiming Working Tax Credits, if he isn't making enough money to keep himself.

That's why I mentioned about Tax Credits (welfare payments) being phased out, as he/you, need to factor that money into your EEA route to the UK, if he is claiming them now.

Plus if he is claiming Working Tax Credits now, then very soon, under the new welfare laws, he may be forced to look for work that does pay him enough to keep himself and go on welfare back to work programmes. So he might as well earn money now to get you over to the UK on a spouse visa, than go the unsafe EU route and sell his house.

e.g. Tax Credits. Someone could set up their own business, said they worked 30+ hours a week but only earned £5 a week. Then welfare (Tax Credits) pay a large welfare payment into their account every 4 weeks, plus extra money (called child tax credits) for every child they had, plus a family premium payment of another £540(?) a year extra for the children. Many have done that for years and it is now ending.

Under the old immigration rules, somene who was claiming working tax credits, could get more WTC money if they lived with someone else who didn't work; and that included a foreign spouse who had "no recourse to public funds" on their visa, as the Brit claimed the extra tax credit welfare money, in their name.

Last edited by formula; Dec 27th 2012 at 8:06 pm.
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Old Dec 27th 2012, 8:07 pm
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Default Re: British citizen living abroad? Non-EEA spouse? This may affect you!

Originally Posted by formula
he may be forced to look for work that does pay him enough to keep himself
Good luck with finding a job that pays enough not to have to claim tax credits without working two jobs! I was told once that my working a second job means one less for for someone else to become employed, so I replied that when one job pays my bills, I'd be very happy to have more time off.

Most jobs in my area now are advertised as 20hrs a week or temporary, neither of which are going to allow me to sponsor my wife's immigration. The full-time ones I'm neither qualified for or pay less than the £18,600 the government say I need to earn. So either I move to London (where rents are higher, increased costs for everything, and leave my kids behind) or leave my wife where she is and join her in a few years.

This government is only interested in how much they can make out of us!

Originally Posted by formula
Under the old immigration rules, somene who was claiming working tax credits, could get more WTC money if they lived with someone else whi didn't work; and that included a foreign spouse who had "no recourse to public funds" on their visa, as the Brit claimed the extra tax credit welfare money, in their name.
When my wife was here, that wasn't the case. She didn't get a penny of public funds, and though I had to put her details on the application as spouse and resident at our address, we knew I couldn't (and we didn't) try claiming for her.

Last edited by DaveLovesDee; Dec 27th 2012 at 8:11 pm.
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Old Dec 27th 2012, 8:21 pm
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Default Re: British citizen living abroad? Non-EEA spouse? This may affect you!

Welcome to Turbocapitalism where you get a "Zero-hour Contract". This guarantees you just that - ZERO HOURS. They phone up the day before and ask if you want to work 12 hours - or 2. Or they don't phone at all. This is common now in jobs from check-out operators to teachers.
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Old Dec 27th 2012, 8:35 pm
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Default Re: British citizen living abroad? Non-EEA spouse? This may affect you!

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee
When my wife was here, that wasn't the case. She didn't get a penny of public funds, and though I had to put her details on the application as spouse and resident at our address, we knew I couldn't (and we didn't) try claiming for her.
Figures are off the top of my head, but are roughly in the right bracket:

Single person earning less than about £11,800 per year; can claim working tax credit welfare payments as long as they work 30 hours a week. Over that amount, then they don't get anything from WTC.

Couple earning less than £18,600 a year between them can claim working tax credit welfare payments. For a Brit with an foreign spouse with no recourse to public funds, this means they can earn up to £18,600 and still get Working Tax Credits, as the claim is in the Brits name.

Brit who marries a foreign spouse who has a child (not the Brit's child), can claim UK welfare for that foreign child, even if the child has 'no recourse to public funds' as the claim is in the Brits name. A Brit on welfare would get about £85 cash per week for that foreign child (child tax credits about £65pw and child benefit £20pw) plus more for every other child, even if they weren't Brits. Plus if the Brit works just 16 hours a week as they now claim for children (just changed to 24 hours a week) they will also get extra WTC for their foreign spouse, plus the child benefit and child tax credits for those foreign children.

The new immigration sponsorship amounts are linked these welfare claim (Tax Credit) amounts.

Plus Tax Credits are going; will be replaced by Universal Credit and parents will have to work more than 16 hours a week between them (just put up to 24 hours a week between them) if they want to claim Universal Credit: or they will be forced to comply with UC conditions i.e. proving they are looking for more work and attending back to work programmes.

Last edited by formula; Dec 27th 2012 at 8:43 pm.
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Old Dec 27th 2012, 9:25 pm
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Default Re: British citizen living abroad? Non-EEA spouse? This may affect you!

Originally Posted by formula
He can work at more than one job, any job/s, to sponsor you. The minimum wage he would earn is £6.19 per hour.
First, he makes enough to "keep himself", but not enough to clearly meet the financial guidelines. He has a shop, and makes enough on average to equate to the 18,600 requirement, but as he is in retail, receipts are inconsistent. He also has a lodger in his home that puts him above the minimum every month quite comfortably, but that income is not allowable income, so we can't count it.

My understanding is that they take the lowest month (of bank deposits) and multiply that by 12 in order to assess whether he meets the financial criteria, ignoring more "successful" months.

In retail, December is well-known to be a much better month than say, January. Receipts drop significantly in January. So, if January is a bad month, it is the only month that is considered - even if December (and the previous months) brought in 3 or 4 times the minimum amount required. It is for this reason that our chances of meeting the financial criteria is slim. It's a crapshoot as to whether each month he would pass the threshold, and January/February are worrisome months.

At 6.19/hr, he would have to work two full time jobs to meet the financial requirements. It makes no sense to me whatsoever that despite a tax return that indicates enough income and an average taken over 6 months to a year to indicate income that one could be disqualified based on a bad month. I don't understand why the sum of deposits over time are not averaged and calculated that way. Nevertheless, that's the way it is.



e.g. Tax Credits. Someone could set up their own business, said they worked 30+ hours a week but only earned £5 a week. Then welfare (Tax Credits) pay a large welfare payment into their account every 4 weeks, plus extra money (called child tax credits) for every child they had, plus a family premium payment of another £540(?) a year extra for the children. Many have done that for years and it is now ending. .
I asked him about these tax credits you've mentioned. He's never claimed them. He is pretty "old school" and refuses to take handouts. He pays his taxes, and believes that one should support his/herself. He works hard, doesn't buy things on credit and lives within his means.

Anyway, we're in the position we're in, and that's that. I don't think it's unreasonable to not agree to work 80 hours a week in a menial job when one has a decent (albeit not wildly monetarily successful) profession and has created a decent life for himself - while still having time to do things with his kids. What is being required is very unfair.

We still think the EEA route is going to be much more efficient. Comprehensive sickness insurance policies (for me) are under $200/month and have decent cover from what I can tell. Frankly, I'd rather pay an insurance company for sickness cover than give any money to the UK government for all the hassle they are causing hardworking, honest people. While the spousal visa application is "only" about $1600, there is a very high chance that our initial application will be rejected, whereupon we'd either have to appeal or file a new application. Appealing could take years. A new application would not be as long, but either way, fees have to be paid again. And that's if we don't have to hire a lawyer to help us.

I'm not optimistic about what's going on over there and about our chances should my husband not have a good enough month one month, and then we'd have to start from square one trying to meet the financial requirements. It's just not a risk we are willing to take. It's going to be less expensive, less time consuming and less heartache to pursue this route. To be on edge every month as the month draws to a close and we have to figure out whether the receipts were high enough to count it as a month progressed toward our spousal visa or if we have to start over - that's a bit much.


We can move to another country for a while, bank the proceeds from the house sale before we go, and then qualify financially within the time we are gone, having had the house sale proceeds squirreled away for at least the minimum amount of time required. It guarantees that we can at least be together and be working in a common household toward common goals.

It is also my understanding that while the UK has placed restrictions on EEA permits, that ultimately, if my husband is exercising his treaty rights in another country and I gain residency in that country that they must grant me five year residency. After that, we can re-assess what we want to do. his kids will be older at that point, and more options will be available to us then having to figure out how to stay in the UK. Plus, I really don't want to be in pay taxes and contribute overall to an economy/society that quite obviously wants nothing to do with me.
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Old Dec 28th 2012, 10:32 am
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Default Re: British citizen living abroad? Non-EEA spouse? This may affect you!

Originally Posted by alliekat
At 6.19/hr, he would have to work two full time jobs to meet the financial requirements.

I don't think it's unreasonable to not agree to work 80 hours a week in a menial job when one has a decent (albeit not wildly monetarily successful) profession and has created a decent life for himself - while still having time to do things with his kids.
The minimum wage of £6.19per hour is just under 58 hours a week to make over £18,600pa, not 80 hours a week. If someone just earns £8 an hour, it would be 45 hours a week. As your husband has a shop, then he will already be working those hours. I don't know anyone who works less than 50 hours a week.

Your husband already has an income, so can he get someone to open his shop while he makes up his income to £18,600 with a second job? Although did I read that the SE need to show 12 months earnings as oppose to the employed showing 6 months pay slips? If that is the case, can he just pay someone to run the shop for him for the hours he earns the £18,600pa in paid emloyment?

The EEA route would scare me as there are too many changes to EU rules; different interpretaions of the rules for free movement; too much happening in the UK; the unstable Eurozone area; the problems with the Euro; unrest in western european countries; talk of the UK leaving the EU, to make that route a sure thing to be even able to live in the UK for any length of time, let alone use it as a path to UK citizenship. Too many "ifs", "buts" and "maybes" and it's getting worse. In the 6 and 1/2 years to UK citizenship using the EU route, a lot could happen. Once you are in the UK on UK immigration rules, any immigration rule changes are not retrospective; unlike the EU rules; as we have just seen with Spain (new interpretation of the exisiting rules) and the UK (adding new EU rules).

Low skilled EEA citizens have no other choice to get to the UK, than to use the EU route and take that chance. Brits do have a choice if they want to sponsor someone to the UK. As do skilled EEA citizens.


Originally Posted by alliekat
Plus, I really don't want to be in pay taxes and contribute overall to an economy/society that quite obviously wants nothing to do with me.
It's not aimed at you personally. Unfortunately, not every Brit is as old school as your husband about asking for state handouts. Even on this site we have seen people claim to UKBA that they have enough money to return to the UK with their non EU spouse; then they are straight down the welfare office for handouts, virtually as soon as their plane lands. Too many people have used UK handouts to support the person they brought to the UK. As always, its these bad apples that ruin it for every decent person.

Last edited by formula; Dec 28th 2012 at 11:36 am.
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Old Dec 28th 2012, 5:13 pm
  #1076  
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Default Re: British citizen living abroad? Non-EEA spouse? This may affect you!

There are plenty of people in the UK who work less than 50 hours per week.

If one is working overtime and counting on that to meet the threshold, this is a roll of the dice with UKBA. All one has to do is miss a week due to sickness, and the entire "counting overtime" plan falls through. The Home Office takes the LOWEST weeks wages to calculate earnings.

"Talk of leaving the EU" is just that - talk. It. Won't. Happen. The UK wants the trade benefits of EU membership. The ethnocentric babble of right wingers in the UK is no reason for a UK citizen to not consider bringing their spouse over on the Singh route.

The UK just published a set of rules last week that contained retrospective changes. So you cannot say the UK doesn't changed things that way.
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Old Dec 28th 2012, 5:18 pm
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Default Re: British citizen living abroad? Non-EEA spouse? This may affect you!

It is not fashionable to say it but we have been living through the "Managed Decline" of an industrial economy. Deindustrialisation and loss of guaranteed markets has reduced Britain to a 3rd rate power. That is reflected in the increasingly woeful position of thoise at the bottom end of the labour market !
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Old Dec 28th 2012, 7:25 pm
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Default Re: British citizen living abroad? Non-EEA spouse? This may affect you!

Originally Posted by rebeccajo
There are plenty of people in the UK who work less than 50 hours per week.

If one is working overtime and counting on that to meet the threshold, this is a roll of the dice with UKBA. All one has to do is miss a week due to sickness, and the entire "counting overtime" plan falls through. The Home Office takes the LOWEST weeks wages to calculate earnings.
The EU Working Time directive sets a limit of 48 hours per work week. One can opt out of this very simply, but few work less than this if they have any choice. For many of us less-skilled workers, there really isn't much choice but to wot=rk long hours unless you want to live on Tesco value foods.
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Old Dec 28th 2012, 7:25 pm
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Default Re: British citizen living abroad? Non-EEA spouse? This may affect you!

Originally Posted by rebeccajo
There are plenty of people in the UK who work less than 50 hours per week.

If one is working overtime and counting on that to meet the threshold, this is a roll of the dice with UKBA. All one has to do is miss a week due to sickness, and the entire "counting overtime" plan falls through. The Home Office takes the LOWEST weeks wages to calculate earnings.
The EU Working Time directive sets a limit of 48 hours per work week. One can opt out of this very simply, but few work less than this if they have any choice. For many of us less-skilled workers, there really isn't much choice but to work long hours unless you want to live on Tesco value foods.
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Old Dec 31st 2012, 12:38 pm
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Default Re: British citizen living abroad? Non-EEA spouse? This may affect you!

Originally Posted by rebeccajo
There are plenty of people in the UK who work less than 50 hours per week.
Many people work more than 50 hours a week on a fixed wage; no overtime. The UK never signed up to those EU laws and it is easy to waive those "rights".


Originally Posted by rebeccajo
"Talk of leaving the EU" is just that - talk. It. Won't. Happen. The UK wants the trade benefits of EU membership.
We don't; other EU countries manage fine working outside the EU. How do you think the UK is suddenly managing to get the EU to write new laws just to protect the UK? That new EU law took away EU rights to a lot of EEAs living in the UK. EU rights that they would keep if they lived in another EEA country, but lost as they live in the UK. Did I read that the new EU law also shut down the Chen route to UK citizenship?

Only 3 countries pay for the EU (put in more than they take out) and the UK is one of them; plus the UK isn't stuck with the Euro. Other western EU countries are already taking about exiting the euro, so that they don't get dragged down with it.

New governments make new laws and some change laws to stay in power. The Tories promised an EU vote in their manifesto and haven't delivered yet, hence why UKIP is gaining votes from all parties; and some MPs are defecting to UKIP. Even the Labour party (who feel they lost the election on their open door immigration policies) are talking about offering in the EU In/Out vote in their manifesto, to try to get back into power. Plus if the Euro goes, just watch how quick the UK door shuts to those trying to use EU laws.

Originally Posted by rebeccajo
The UK just published a set of rules last week that contained retrospective changes. So you cannot say the UK doesn't changed things that way.
The welfare changes are retrospective.

When the new immigration rules came in on visas over the last few years; none were retrospective i.e. those who had a Tier 1 General visa, were allowed to extend these even if they weren't as highly skilled as they claimed but that route was closed to every new applicant: those who applied for a spouse visa before 9 July, still got in on the old easy rules and stay on those old rules until they get citizenship.

The immigration criminality laws have just been changed to stop criminals getting ILR or citizenship. The illegals have lost their free pass to citizenship if they aren't caught after 14 years (that was brought in by Labour), but that was always outside UK immigration laws. The requirement to speak English to a basic level were retrospective. EU laws were written to protect the UK and they came in with almost immediate effect. All of these things have been done to protect the UK. However, if you enter the UK legally on a visa, then the path to settlement doesn't change so long as you don't break our laws.

The EU laws are the ones that change with immediate effect. The UKBA immigration route is the safe route to staying in the UK. Plus the EU has many factors that could see the rules changing rapidly.

I do accept however, that there may have to be other changes. The habitual residence test may change; and maybe access to the NHS too i.e. medicals before a visa, such as countries like Australia and Canada have to protect their health systems.

Last edited by formula; Dec 31st 2012 at 1:10 pm.
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