Vancouver Shooting - 10 injured
Dec 17th 2010, 3:29 am
#46
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Sep 2006
Location: Kelowna
Posts: 2,514
Re: Vancouver Shooting - 10 injured
Dec 17th 2010, 3:37 am
#47
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,054
Re: Vancouver Shooting - 10 injured
While i agree, at least fundamentally, with ending prohibition and allowing free choice, the end to crime argument is not as straight forward as it appears.
Cigs and booze still are huge money makers on the black market, organised crime are active in both markets. Cross border smuggling, counterfeit etc.....most common stolen item: booze, second most common thing taken in a robbery after cash: cigs.
Legalizing would change the criminals enterprise, not stop it. Just another perspective.
Cigs and booze still are huge money makers on the black market, organised crime are active in both markets. Cross border smuggling, counterfeit etc.....most common stolen item: booze, second most common thing taken in a robbery after cash: cigs.
Legalizing would change the criminals enterprise, not stop it. Just another perspective.
Dec 17th 2010, 3:41 am
#48
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,054
Re: Vancouver Shooting - 10 injured
I have said this numerous times on here ......only perception counts as far as how safe a city feels. Vancouver feels extremely safe.
Dec 17th 2010, 9:20 pm
#49
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 396
Re: Vancouver Shooting - 10 injured
Media spin...high property crime rates are nothing new here and are hardly dangerous. Plus only 17 cities surveyed.....I should also imagine that there are proportinately less cars in New York and less on the streets.....Been here 18 years next month - car broken into twice, that it
I have said this numerous times on here ......only perception counts as far as how safe a city feels. Vancouver feels extremely safe.
I have said this numerous times on here ......only perception counts as far as how safe a city feels. Vancouver feels extremely safe.
I also wouldn't suggest that property crime is 'hardly dangerous', it isn't up there with murder, but there's always the risk that you could be home when it happens and it hardly makes you feel safe if it happens to you.
Facts are that Vancouver does have very high property and car crime rates and murder rates are about twice what they are in England. No idea how other crimes i.e. assaults, sexual crimes relate? Yes, the general vibe of the city doesn't feel threatening and there is less chavvy stuff (vandalism etc) overall, but why does only perception count as far as how safe a city feels? Surely the facts come into it. Your own perception helps in terms of your own feelings about a place and well-being, but doesn't stop you becoming a victim. A lot of people state that they want to move from the UK due to fear of crime, just because Vancouver might feel less threatening than some UK cities, let's not brush the hard facts and crime figures under the carpet.
Crime and it's media reporting is different here. I believe that there is more anti-social type crime in the UK which affects how a large majority of people perceive a place to be. In terms of hard facts and actual crime, however, don't underestimate the levels here. It ain't Detroit, but there is a lot of crime and that's before you deal with organized crime/drugs etc. The fact that the 3rd largest industry in BC, is the production and distrubution of marijuana shows you how massive this is.
By the way, I have been burgled twice and had car broken into, in just under 4 years here. In 30 odd years in the UK, I had my car broken into once.
Dec 17th 2010, 9:30 pm
#50
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 14,227
Re: Vancouver Shooting - 10 injured
Why is it media spin - Are you disputing the fact that the report states that property crime is twice as high in Vancouver, than it is in New York? That fact alone would surprise a lot of people. The police are just as bad at 'spin' when it comes to annual crime reports etc.
I also wouldn't suggest that property crime is 'hardly dangerous', it isn't up there with murder, but there's always the risk that you could be home when it happens and it hardly makes you feel safe if it happens to you.
Facts are that Vancouver does have very high property and car crime rates and murder rates are about twice what they are in England. No idea how other crimes i.e. assaults, sexual crimes relate? Yes, the general vibe of the city doesn't feel threatening and there is less chavvy stuff (vandalism etc) overall, but why does only perception count as far as how safe a city feels? Surely the facts come into it. Your own perception helps in terms of your own feelings about a place and well-being, but doesn't stop you becoming a victim. A lot of people state that they want to move from the UK due to fear of crime, just because Vancouver might feel less threatening than some UK cities, let's not brush the hard facts and crime figures under the carpet.
Crime and it's media reporting is different here. I believe that there is more anti-social type crime in the UK which affects how a large majority of people perceive a place to be. In terms of hard facts and actual crime, however, don't underestimate the levels here. It ain't Detroit, but there is a lot of crime and that's before you deal with organized crime/drugs etc. The fact that the 3rd largest industry in BC, is the production and distrubution of marijuana shows you how massive this is.
By the way, I have been burgled twice and had car broken into, in just under 4 years here. In 30 odd years in the UK, I had my car broken into once.
I also wouldn't suggest that property crime is 'hardly dangerous', it isn't up there with murder, but there's always the risk that you could be home when it happens and it hardly makes you feel safe if it happens to you.
Facts are that Vancouver does have very high property and car crime rates and murder rates are about twice what they are in England. No idea how other crimes i.e. assaults, sexual crimes relate? Yes, the general vibe of the city doesn't feel threatening and there is less chavvy stuff (vandalism etc) overall, but why does only perception count as far as how safe a city feels? Surely the facts come into it. Your own perception helps in terms of your own feelings about a place and well-being, but doesn't stop you becoming a victim. A lot of people state that they want to move from the UK due to fear of crime, just because Vancouver might feel less threatening than some UK cities, let's not brush the hard facts and crime figures under the carpet.
Crime and it's media reporting is different here. I believe that there is more anti-social type crime in the UK which affects how a large majority of people perceive a place to be. In terms of hard facts and actual crime, however, don't underestimate the levels here. It ain't Detroit, but there is a lot of crime and that's before you deal with organized crime/drugs etc. The fact that the 3rd largest industry in BC, is the production and distrubution of marijuana shows you how massive this is.
By the way, I have been burgled twice and had car broken into, in just under 4 years here. In 30 odd years in the UK, I had my car broken into once.
There are two reasons for this I think. One is the style of media they have here; the reporting in Canada is more parochial and tends to be focused solely on local news and therefore in absolute terms less bad news is reported. The other is population density: I believe overall per capita crime is broadly similar to the UK, but this still means there is twice as much crime there than here.
Dec 17th 2010, 9:38 pm
#51
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,054
Re: Vancouver Shooting - 10 injured
Why is it media spin - Are you disputing the fact that the report states that property crime is twice as high in Vancouver, than it is in New York? That fact alone would surprise a lot of people. The police are just as bad at 'spin' when it comes to annual crime reports etc.
I also wouldn't suggest that property crime is 'hardly dangerous', it isn't up there with murder, but there's always the risk that you could be home when it happens and it hardly makes you feel safe if it happens to you.
Facts are that Vancouver does have very high property and car crime rates and murder rates are about twice what they are in England. No idea how other crimes i.e. assaults, sexual crimes relate? Yes, the general vibe of the city doesn't feel threatening and there is less chavvy stuff (vandalism etc) overall, but why does only perception count as far as how safe a city feels? Surely the facts come into it. Your own perception helps in terms of your own feelings about a place and well-being, but doesn't stop you becoming a victim. A lot of people state that they want to move from the UK due to fear of crime, just because Vancouver might feel less threatening than some UK cities, let's not brush the hard facts and crime figures under the carpet.
Crime and it's media reporting is different here. I believe that there is more anti-social type crime in the UK which affects how a large majority of people perceive a place to be. In terms of hard facts and actual crime, however, don't underestimate the levels here. It ain't Detroit, but there is a lot of crime and that's before you deal with organized crime/drugs etc. The fact that the 3rd largest industry in BC, is the production and distrubution of marijuana shows you how massive this is.
By the way, I have been burgled twice and had car broken into, in just under 4 years here. In 30 odd years in the UK, I had my car broken into once.
I also wouldn't suggest that property crime is 'hardly dangerous', it isn't up there with murder, but there's always the risk that you could be home when it happens and it hardly makes you feel safe if it happens to you.
Facts are that Vancouver does have very high property and car crime rates and murder rates are about twice what they are in England. No idea how other crimes i.e. assaults, sexual crimes relate? Yes, the general vibe of the city doesn't feel threatening and there is less chavvy stuff (vandalism etc) overall, but why does only perception count as far as how safe a city feels? Surely the facts come into it. Your own perception helps in terms of your own feelings about a place and well-being, but doesn't stop you becoming a victim. A lot of people state that they want to move from the UK due to fear of crime, just because Vancouver might feel less threatening than some UK cities, let's not brush the hard facts and crime figures under the carpet.
Crime and it's media reporting is different here. I believe that there is more anti-social type crime in the UK which affects how a large majority of people perceive a place to be. In terms of hard facts and actual crime, however, don't underestimate the levels here. It ain't Detroit, but there is a lot of crime and that's before you deal with organized crime/drugs etc. The fact that the 3rd largest industry in BC, is the production and distrubution of marijuana shows you how massive this is.
By the way, I have been burgled twice and had car broken into, in just under 4 years here. In 30 odd years in the UK, I had my car broken into once.
Murder twice as a high what a total crock, you should really use google. There is not link between property crime and violent crime, other than homeinvasions which are a different beast altogether.
I am a cop, I dont need you to tell me about crime, tar very much. Lived in Vancouver 18 years, never been assulted, never threatend, not burgaled, not robbed, never had anything nicked (other than some loose change and a few CD's out of my car). Moreover, never felt as though it were about to kick off or that underlying current as just about any major centre in the UK
Any of course ****ing perception counts, you have been victimized, your perception is different. i have been vicitmized in teh UK, so mine is different. You even note this your self, then discount it????????????? Go on read the crime stats and don't leave your house for fear of what might happen to you......FFS
And as for organised crime, i work it everyday....look further up the thread re the vancouver shooting if you want my views on that.
Here: try google next time:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...ers-per-capita
Murder rate is almost identical to the UK, as is crime overall.
Moreover, one is more likely to get wacked in the Big Apple but one's car to be untouched, when you consider the murder rate in Vancouver is 2.1 for every 100,000 vs 6.3 in New York, that is what I mean by media spin.
Last edited by dboy; Dec 17th 2010 at 10:24 pm.
Dec 17th 2010, 9:38 pm
#52
.
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 20,185
Re: Vancouver Shooting - 10 injured
I kind of see where dboy is coming from. It's not that people in Vancouver are too complacent or they aren't afraid enough - it's that people in the UK have a disproportionate fear of crime against the reality.
There are two reasons for this I think. One is the style of media they have here; the reporting in Canada is more parochial and tends to be focused solely on local news and therefore in absolute terms less bad news is reported. The other is population density: I believe overall per capita crime is broadly similar to the UK, but this still means there is twice as much crime there than here.
There are two reasons for this I think. One is the style of media they have here; the reporting in Canada is more parochial and tends to be focused solely on local news and therefore in absolute terms less bad news is reported. The other is population density: I believe overall per capita crime is broadly similar to the UK, but this still means there is twice as much crime there than here.
Dec 17th 2010, 9:52 pm
#53
BE Troll
Joined: Feb 2009
Location: Upper Atmosphere
Posts: 1,708
Re: Vancouver Shooting - 10 injured
It must have been a group of hunters responsible for all this madness.
Dec 17th 2010, 10:24 pm
#54
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 396
Re: Vancouver Shooting - 10 injured
I kind of see where dboy is coming from. It's not that people in Vancouver are too complacent or they aren't afraid enough - it's that people in the UK have a disproportionate fear of crime against the reality.
There are two reasons for this I think. One is the style of media they have here; the reporting in Canada is more parochial and tends to be focused solely on local news and therefore in absolute terms less bad news is reported. The other is population density: I believe overall per capita crime is broadly similar to the UK, but this still means there is twice as much crime there than here.
There are two reasons for this I think. One is the style of media they have here; the reporting in Canada is more parochial and tends to be focused solely on local news and therefore in absolute terms less bad news is reported. The other is population density: I believe overall per capita crime is broadly similar to the UK, but this still means there is twice as much crime there than here.
Read the article more closely before shouting off your mouth, I also noted it was not new that property crime here was high. The atricle is spun as though we live in some crime infested backwater, where it aint safe to walk the streets.
Murder twice as a high what a total crock, you should really use google. There is not link between property crime and violent crime, other than homeinvasions which are a different beast altogether.
I am a cop, I dont need you to tell me about crime, tar very much. Lived in Vancouver 18 years, never been assulted, never threatend, not burgaled, not robbed, never had anything nicked. Moreover, never felt as though it were about to kick off or that underlying current as just about any major centre in the UK
Any of course ****ing perception counts, you have been victimized, your perception is different. i have been vicitmized in teh UK, so mine is different. You even note this your self, then discount it?????????????
And as for organised crime, i work it everyday....look further up the thread re the vancouver shooting if you want my views on that.
Here: try google next time:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...ers-per-capita
Murder rate is almost identical to the UK, as is crime overall.
Murder twice as a high what a total crock, you should really use google. There is not link between property crime and violent crime, other than homeinvasions which are a different beast altogether.
I am a cop, I dont need you to tell me about crime, tar very much. Lived in Vancouver 18 years, never been assulted, never threatend, not burgaled, not robbed, never had anything nicked. Moreover, never felt as though it were about to kick off or that underlying current as just about any major centre in the UK
Any of course ****ing perception counts, you have been victimized, your perception is different. i have been vicitmized in teh UK, so mine is different. You even note this your self, then discount it?????????????
And as for organised crime, i work it everyday....look further up the thread re the vancouver shooting if you want my views on that.
Here: try google next time:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...ers-per-capita
Murder rate is almost identical to the UK, as is crime overall.
These show that the homicide rate in Canada is 2.62 per 100,000, not the equivalent of 1.49 that your website shows. You think as a cop you'd be using official figures before you slate somebody?
I didn't say that perception doesn't count, I was querying why you said that 'only perception counts'. Sheesh.
Dec 17th 2010, 10:44 pm
#55
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,054
Re: Vancouver Shooting - 10 injured
I agree. Mind you there is twice the population !!
Oh dear, this reminds me why I didn't bother coming on here for the longest time. Rather than using google and pulling up a random website, perhaps you might like to look at official statsan figures: http://www.statcan.gc.ca/daily-quoti...tm#tab1ftnote1
These show that the homicide rate in Canada is 2.62 per 100,000, not the equivalent of 1.49 that your website shows. You think as a cop you'd be using official figures before you slate somebody?
I didn't say that perception doesn't count, I was querying why you said that 'only perception counts'. Sheesh.
Oh dear, this reminds me why I didn't bother coming on here for the longest time. Rather than using google and pulling up a random website, perhaps you might like to look at official statsan figures: http://www.statcan.gc.ca/daily-quoti...tm#tab1ftnote1
These show that the homicide rate in Canada is 2.62 per 100,000, not the equivalent of 1.49 that your website shows. You think as a cop you'd be using official figures before you slate somebody?
I didn't say that perception doesn't count, I was querying why you said that 'only perception counts'. Sheesh.
murder is a criminal offence, homicide is when a human causes the death of another...there certainy were not 61 murders, more like 17 or 18. Homcide can be negligance, manslaughter, infantcide, a cop shooting someone, a surgery gone bad, car accident, and yes murder is homicide or as the states like to refer to it, cupable homicide....etc ....oh dear, missed the point didn't we, i will cut you some slack as it is a common mistake, and as an homicide cop i have a leg up on you.
Stats can are referrencing total homicide not murder rates.
The rates are likely from teh coroner. When i investigated homicides we worked jointly with the coroner under the BC Coroner's Act and had to complete a 'sudden death report' of our findings to aid the coroner. The coroner has to find cause of death either: suicide, homicide, accidental or undetermined. Take a gun death maybe it discharged while cleaning: accident, or intentionally used to shoot one's wife: homicide or fired by one self to end one's life: suicide. It is the police and crown that determine if it's a murder by applying the elements of the offence.
http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&bi...g&ved=0CBUQkAE
http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&bi...g&ved=0CBUQkAE
And yes perception counts when gaging how you feel about an area other wise it's fear mongering. Should i be afraid to go to new york coz the murder rate is 3 times as high? No most certainly not. It would not put me off at all.
And since you like stats can so much:
http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85-565-...155197-eng.htm
"Canadians' perceptions of crime in their community can be shaped by a number of factors, including their own personal and household victimization; experiences of those close to them; and media reports of criminal incidents"
Last edited by dboy; Dec 17th 2010 at 11:55 pm.
Dec 17th 2010, 11:00 pm
#56
.
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 20,185
Re: Vancouver Shooting - 10 injured
Not just perception but location. You know, you're ten times more likely to be a victim of violent crime in Canada than you are in America.
That's because you don't live in America. I'll get my coat.
That's because you don't live in America. I'll get my coat.
Dec 17th 2010, 11:38 pm
#57
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 396
Re: Vancouver Shooting - 10 injured
murder is a criminal offence, homicide is when a human causes the death of another...there certainy were not 61 murders, more like 17 or 18. Homcide can be negligance, a cop shooting someone, a surgery gone bad, car accident, and yes murder is homicide or as the states like to refer to it, cupable homicide....etc ....oh dear, missed the point didn't we, i will cut you some slack as it is a common mistake, and as an homicide cop i have a leg up on you.
Stats can are referrencing total homicide not murder rates.
The rates are likely from teh coroner. When i investigated homicides we worked jointly with the coroner under the BC Coroner's Act and had to complete a 'sudden death report' of our findings to aid the coroner. The coroner has to find cause of death either: suicide, homicide, accidental or undetermined. Take a gun death maybe it discharged while cleaning: accident, or intentionally used to shoot one's wife: homicide or fired by one self to end one's life: suicide. It is the police and crown that determine if it's a murder by applying the elements of the offence.
http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&bi...g&ved=0CBUQkAE
http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&bi...g&ved=0CBUQkAE
And yes perception counts when gaging how you feel about an area other wise it's fear mongering. Should i be afraid to go to new york coz the murder rate is 3 times as high? No most certainly not. It would not put me off at all.
Stats can are referrencing total homicide not murder rates.
The rates are likely from teh coroner. When i investigated homicides we worked jointly with the coroner under the BC Coroner's Act and had to complete a 'sudden death report' of our findings to aid the coroner. The coroner has to find cause of death either: suicide, homicide, accidental or undetermined. Take a gun death maybe it discharged while cleaning: accident, or intentionally used to shoot one's wife: homicide or fired by one self to end one's life: suicide. It is the police and crown that determine if it's a murder by applying the elements of the offence.
http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&bi...g&ved=0CBUQkAE
http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&bi...g&ved=0CBUQkAE
And yes perception counts when gaging how you feel about an area other wise it's fear mongering. Should i be afraid to go to new york coz the murder rate is 3 times as high? No most certainly not. It would not put me off at all.
61 homicides was for the GVRD. Rate of 2.62 murders/homicides for Vancouver (sorry not canada) and a pop. of 600k would tally up with your 17/18 number.This website shows 114 killings in the GVRD in 2009-10. Can't see many car accidents there.
www.cbc.ca/bc/features/homicide/map.html
From all the figures I've seen, the total number of homicides/murders is only slightly higher in England & Wales than Canada with a big population difference.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/ju...cession-impact
So 648 homicides in England & Wales with a population of about 50m. I make that a rate of 1.29. England & Wales has about x10 the homicides of GVRD, with about x20 the population.
I ain't no statistician or cop, but that looks like a pretty sound analysis myself.
Dec 18th 2010, 12:08 am
#58
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,054
Re: Vancouver Shooting - 10 injured
Yes there is a legal difference between homicide and murder, like murder and manslaughter, but really we are talking one person killing another here, not a run of the mill car accident aren't we 61 homicides was for the GVRD. Rate of 2.62 murders/homicides for Vancouver (sorry not canada) and a pop. of 600k would tally up with your 17/18 number.
This website shows 114 killings in the GVRD in 2009-10. Can't see many car accidents there.
www.cbc.ca/bc/features/homicide/map.html
From all the figures I've seen, the total number of homicides/murders is only slightly higher in England & Wales than Canada with a big population difference.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/ju...cession-impact
So 648 homicides in England & Wales with a population of about 50m. I make that a rate of 1.29. England & Wales has about x10 the homicides of GVRD, with about x20 the population.
I ain't no statistician or cop, but that looks like a pretty sound analysis myself.
61 homicides was for the GVRD. Rate of 2.62 murders/homicides for Vancouver (sorry not canada) and a pop. of 600k would tally up with your 17/18 number.This website shows 114 killings in the GVRD in 2009-10. Can't see many car accidents there.
www.cbc.ca/bc/features/homicide/map.html
From all the figures I've seen, the total number of homicides/murders is only slightly higher in England & Wales than Canada with a big population difference.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/ju...cession-impact
So 648 homicides in England & Wales with a population of about 50m. I make that a rate of 1.29. England & Wales has about x10 the homicides of GVRD, with about x20 the population.
I ain't no statistician or cop, but that looks like a pretty sound analysis myself.
Best move back to blighty then had n't you it is afterall much safer
avoid manchester though, about 3000 civs and cops are likely to be phased out:
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...283410640.html
I am even more confussed now:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/5006852.stm
looks like major urban areas have murder rates that are worse than vancouver, manchester is not much bigger and as around 100 murders, the same as the LMD. Murder rate is worse in Nottingham with 5.21.
Last edited by dboy; Dec 18th 2010 at 12:44 am.
Dec 18th 2010, 5:21 am
#59
Best Place on Earth- LMAO
Joined: Dec 2004
Location: BC
Posts: 571
Re: Vancouver Shooting - 10 injured
Abbotsford's murder rate was also 5.2 in 2009. 2 murders were not counted because they occurred on native land but were near Abbotsford.
Dec 18th 2010, 5:47 am
#60
Just Joined
Joined: Dec 2010
Location: Far away from you, creep.
Posts: 2
Re: Vancouver Shooting - 10 injured
Glad to know we're a world class city. I guess we finally get a giant tick in the 'Violent Crime' box.