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Toronto feels Small

Toronto feels Small

Old Jul 3rd 2015, 11:27 am
  #16  
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Default Re: Toronto feels Small

Originally Posted by Alex2201
I agree that it is a layout issue. Most European cities have a historic center that is still the focus of the city and they have grown around it. This is simply not the case in new world countries. Toronto is a good example of a more planned approach to building a city.

I actually really like Toronto and part of its appeal is that it is more of a patchwork.

As Bristol says it could be worse.....
In the sense that it demonstrates that town planners are about as much use as weather forecasters, I suppose it might be. If Toronto was planned, and I find the idea far fetched, how come the planners didn't think of the idea of making it easy to move around the city and/or in and out of the city? Why didn't they think of the idea of having separate systems for sewage and ground waste water so there'd be no need to set turds bobbing in the lake?
Roads, extensive subways and sewers existed in European cities while Torontonians were chasing the natives off the land and setting up their piggeries.

Furthermore, if it was planned, why is it so ugly? Why aren't the AGO and the Harbourfront III Condos, for example, concealed underground?
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Old Jul 3rd 2015, 12:51 pm
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Default Re: Toronto feels Small

Originally Posted by dbd33
In the sense that it demonstrates that town planners are about as much use as weather forecasters, I suppose it might be. If Toronto was planned, and I find the idea far fetched, how come the planners didn't think of the idea of making it easy to move around the city and/or in and out of the city? Why didn't they think of the idea of having separate systems for sewage and ground waste water so there'd be no need to set turds bobbing in the lake?
Roads, extensive subways and sewers existed in European cities while Torontonians were chasing the natives off the land and setting up their piggeries.

Furthermore, if it was planned, why is it so ugly? Why aren't the AGO and the Harbourfront III Condos, for example, concealed underground?


I perhaps should have clarified what I really meant by planned. I just meant in terms of the layout or footprint of the city. I mean that as and when it has expanded they just extend whichever street or avenue and build grid like blocks as oppose to the more ad hoc way that European cities seem to have developed. Toronto is a victim of short sighted investment in public infrastructure and expanding at such a rapid rate that it is virtually impossible to keep up with....a victim of its own success if you will.
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Old Jul 3rd 2015, 1:36 pm
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Default Re: Toronto feels Small

Originally Posted by Tirytory
*you are* not your..... Perhaps you could concentrate on spelling and punctuation instead of a life?
Haha, I was going to point that out but held back.

Originally Posted by Alex2201
I agree that it is a layout issue. Most European cities have a historic center that is still the focus of the city and they have grown around it. This is simply not the case in new world countries. Toronto is a good example of a more planned approach to building a city.

I actually really like Toronto and part of its appeal is that it is more of a patchwork.

As Bristol says it could be worse.....
Originally Posted by Alex2201


I perhaps should have clarified what I really meant by planned. I just meant in terms of the layout or footprint of the city. I mean that as and when it has expanded they just extend whichever street or avenue and build grid like blocks as oppose to the more ad hoc way that European cities seem to have developed. Toronto is a victim of short sighted investment in public infrastructure and expanding at such a rapid rate that it is virtually impossible to keep up with....a victim of its own success if you will.
See, I think the critical thing about Toronto is it is not planned or even grown organically, it's grown through a fluke of history and the actions of others. It's the City equivalent of Budweiser or Canadian Club (both of which achieved popularity thanks to prohibition).

Toronto was a medium sized industrial/ commercial city bumbling along quite happily. Birmingham without the curry if you like. Then Quebec decides that politically & economically speaking French is the most important thing in the world, and suddenly Montreal- Canada's only world class city 40 years ago- is on the rack. As well as the language laws the employment laws start coming in and talk of separation is in the air. What happens? Everyone ups sticks and shifts to Toronto.

We'll never know whether Toronto actually noticed this; they may have raised a glass of Labatt Blue in the general direction of the East and said "cheers". But they certainly didn't sit down and think "Oh look, we're now the commercial capital of Canada, we need A Plan.

Hence the sporadic random growth. The city centre is small. Mississauga. Business throwing up house in spec offices that sprout like weeds alongside all of the expressways. No public transport policy- the TTC would be prefect if Montreal hadn't pressed the self destruct button, or if someone had realised the knock-on effect for TO.

Basically everyone is getting by without a master plan or any concept of one.
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Old Jul 3rd 2015, 2:52 pm
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Default Re: Toronto feels Small

Originally Posted by Pizzawheel
Haha, I was going to point that out but held back.





See, I think the critical thing about Toronto is it is not planned or even grown organically, it's grown through a fluke of history and the actions of others. It's the City equivalent of Budweiser or Canadian Club (both of which achieved popularity thanks to prohibition).

Toronto was a medium sized industrial/ commercial city bumbling along quite happily. Birmingham without the curry if you like. Then Quebec decides that politically & economically speaking French is the most important thing in the world, and suddenly Montreal- Canada's only world class city 40 years ago- is on the rack. As well as the language laws the employment laws start coming in and talk of separation is in the air. What happens? Everyone ups sticks and shifts to Toronto.

We'll never know whether Toronto actually noticed this; they may have raised a glass of Labatt Blue in the general direction of the East and said "cheers". But they certainly didn't sit down and think "Oh look, we're now the commercial capital of Canada, we need A Plan.

Hence the sporadic random growth. The city centre is small. Mississauga. Business throwing up house in spec offices that sprout like weeds alongside all of the expressways. No public transport policy- the TTC would be prefect if Montreal hadn't pressed the self destruct button, or if someone had realised the knock-on effect for TO.

Basically everyone is getting by without a master plan or any concept of one.
Fantastic! Not only is there more than a grain of truth in all that, but it means that Torontonians, and indeed GTA-ians in general, can legitimately blame all (well, most of) the city's ills on those pesky Quebecers. Hurrah!

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Old Jul 3rd 2015, 3:43 pm
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Default Re: Toronto feels Small

Originally Posted by Oakvillian
Fantastic! Not only is there more than a grain of truth in all that, but it means that Torontonians, and indeed GTA-ians in general, can legitimately blame all (well, most of) the city's ills on those pesky Quebecers. Hurrah!

Well, with the exception that if those pesky Qubeccers hadn't so thoroughly shot themselves in the feet- then kept the gunfire going up their legs- there wouldn't be a GTA in it's present day form and Oakville/ Burlington might still be small lakefront towns.
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Old Jul 3rd 2015, 4:30 pm
  #21  
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Default Re: Toronto feels Small

Bill 401 also had a significant influence on the Kitchener-Waterloo area; all those insurance companies were once in Quebec.
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Old Jul 3rd 2015, 5:00 pm
  #22  
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Default Re: Toronto feels Small

Originally Posted by dbd33
In the sense that it demonstrates that town planners are about as much use as weather forecasters, I suppose it might be. If Toronto was planned, and I find the idea far fetched, how come the planners didn't think of the idea of making it easy to move around the city and/or in and out of the city? Why didn't they think of the idea of having separate systems for sewage and ground waste water so there'd be no need to set turds bobbing in the lake?
Roads, extensive subways and sewers existed in European cities while Torontonians were chasing the natives off the land and setting up their piggeries.

Furthermore, if it was planned, why is it so ugly? Why aren't the AGO and the Harbourfront III Condos, for example, concealed underground?
I have a brother who was in Town Planning for a while up near Leamington Spa.

He managed to get several traffic lights adjusted during a 3 year tenure.

It's not that he didn't try to do more but with politics and people being so short sighted and people only seeing to the end of their own noses you end up limited in what you are actually able to run with.

Then there is getting the changes through lengthy approval processes and changing administrations. Often by the time they occur the situation they were to resolve has moved on.

In Toronto the inability to make decisions and then run with the ball when they do is what kills the place.

In the last election for City Hall I had nearly 30 possible candidates to vote for. How could I ever understand their policies who what their mandate was when there was so many.

Then once the individual is in City Hall they have no parties so voting is inconsistent and runs all over the place.

The Gardiner is a prime example of a failure to organise effectively and make a clear decision. I'll be amazed if they ever end up doing this "Hybrid" conversion.

The same with Smart Track.

It's a miracle they got a train from the airport to Union although that was driven by external pressure.
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Old Jul 3rd 2015, 5:03 pm
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Default Re: Toronto feels Small

Originally Posted by Pizzawheel

We'll never know whether Toronto actually noticed this; they may have raised a glass of Labatt Blue in the general direction of the East and said "cheers". But they certainly didn't sit down and think "Oh look, we're now the commercial capital of Canada, we need A Plan.
The condo developers noticed and buggered the place!
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Old Jul 3rd 2015, 5:11 pm
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Default Re: Toronto feels Small

Yeah- I think it's no coincidence that east London (real London) has the best road network as you can demolish and build for miles before coming across a posh, politically connected enclave- Wansted being the exception.

Compare that to North/ West even South where sooner or later you're going to go through the backyard of one of the Queen's rellies.

Originally Posted by JamesM
I have a brother who was in Town Planning for a while up near Leamington Spa.

He managed to get several traffic lights adjusted during a 3 year tenure.

It's not that he didn't try to do more but with politics and people being so short sighted and people only seeing to the end of their own noses you end up limited in what you are actually able to run with.

Then there is getting the changes through lengthy approval processes and changing administrations. Often by the time they occur the situation they were to resolve has moved on.

In Toronto the inability to make decisions and then run with the ball when they do is what kills the place.

In the last election for City Hall I had nearly 30 possible candidates to vote for. How could I ever understand their policies who what their mandate was when there was so many.

Then once the individual is in City Hall they have no parties so voting is inconsistent and runs all over the place.

The Gardiner is a prime example of a failure to organise effectively and make a clear decision. I'll be amazed if they ever end up doing this "Hybrid" conversion.

The same with Smart Track.

It's a miracle they got a train from the airport to Union although that was driven by external pressure.
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Old Jul 3rd 2015, 5:36 pm
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Default Re: Toronto feels Small

Originally Posted by JamesM
The Gardiner is a prime example of a failure to organise effectively and make a clear decision. I'll be amazed if they ever end up doing this "Hybrid" conversion.
They did manage to demolish one end of it and replace it with a wide fast road cutting the neighbourhood off from the lake. A road known locally at the time as the Jack Layton Parkway. Nothing is better for that having been done so I think we should all hope nothing is done with the rest of it.
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Old Jul 4th 2015, 2:39 am
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Default Re: Toronto feels Small

Originally Posted by dbd33
They did manage to demolish one end of it and replace it with a wide fast road cutting the neighbourhood off from the lake. A road known locally at the time as the Jack Layton Parkway. Nothing is better for that having been done so I think we should all hope nothing is done with the rest of it.
Is that the Lakeshore around Logan through Leslie???

I've always wondered how those big communist looking blocks ended up either side of it.
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Old Jul 4th 2015, 1:15 pm
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Default Re: Toronto feels Small

Originally Posted by Tirytory
*you are* not your..... Perhaps you could concentrate on spelling and punctuation instead of a life?
seems to be you spending time trolling comments and nitpicking folks comments on here . How sad..
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Old Jul 4th 2015, 10:06 pm
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Default Re: Toronto feels Small

Originally Posted by Tirytory
*you are* not your..... Perhaps you could concentrate on spelling and punctuation instead of a life?
Originally Posted by BritCanadaNewbie
seems to be you spending time trolling comments and nitpicking folks comments on here . How sad..
... & moving swiftly along please guys . The written word can be a bit trickety trick can't it, so let's not get into a bit of a pickety pick at each other please.

Cheers beers & I'm now off to make pancakes for late breakfast. Oh yes I am.
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Old Jul 4th 2015, 10:17 pm
  #29  
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Default Re: Toronto feels Small

Back in the early 80's when we moved from Toronto to Wellington NZ, not only was it a culture shock it was like going back to 1950's small town UK

Our son was totally shocked that there was only one McDonalds, it being at the foot of Cuba St

My wife though was impressed with the BYO

Windy Wellington, beats it all ...
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Old Jul 5th 2015, 1:37 am
  #30  
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Default Re: Toronto feels Small

Originally Posted by JamesM
Is that the Lakeshore around Logan through Leslie???

I've always wondered how those big communist looking blocks ended up either side of it.
Yes, the Gardiner used to end at Leslie.
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