Toronto feels Small
#16
Re: Toronto feels Small
I agree that it is a layout issue. Most European cities have a historic center that is still the focus of the city and they have grown around it. This is simply not the case in new world countries. Toronto is a good example of a more planned approach to building a city.
I actually really like Toronto and part of its appeal is that it is more of a patchwork.
As Bristol says it could be worse.....
I actually really like Toronto and part of its appeal is that it is more of a patchwork.
As Bristol says it could be worse.....
Roads, extensive subways and sewers existed in European cities while Torontonians were chasing the natives off the land and setting up their piggeries.
Furthermore, if it was planned, why is it so ugly? Why aren't the AGO and the Harbourfront III Condos, for example, concealed underground?
#17
Account Closed
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 0
Re: Toronto feels Small
In the sense that it demonstrates that town planners are about as much use as weather forecasters, I suppose it might be. If Toronto was planned, and I find the idea far fetched, how come the planners didn't think of the idea of making it easy to move around the city and/or in and out of the city? Why didn't they think of the idea of having separate systems for sewage and ground waste water so there'd be no need to set turds bobbing in the lake?
Roads, extensive subways and sewers existed in European cities while Torontonians were chasing the natives off the land and setting up their piggeries.
Furthermore, if it was planned, why is it so ugly? Why aren't the AGO and the Harbourfront III Condos, for example, concealed underground?
Roads, extensive subways and sewers existed in European cities while Torontonians were chasing the natives off the land and setting up their piggeries.
Furthermore, if it was planned, why is it so ugly? Why aren't the AGO and the Harbourfront III Condos, for example, concealed underground?
I perhaps should have clarified what I really meant by planned. I just meant in terms of the layout or footprint of the city. I mean that as and when it has expanded they just extend whichever street or avenue and build grid like blocks as oppose to the more ad hoc way that European cities seem to have developed. Toronto is a victim of short sighted investment in public infrastructure and expanding at such a rapid rate that it is virtually impossible to keep up with....a victim of its own success if you will.
#18
Re: Toronto feels Small
I agree that it is a layout issue. Most European cities have a historic center that is still the focus of the city and they have grown around it. This is simply not the case in new world countries. Toronto is a good example of a more planned approach to building a city.
I actually really like Toronto and part of its appeal is that it is more of a patchwork.
As Bristol says it could be worse.....
I actually really like Toronto and part of its appeal is that it is more of a patchwork.
As Bristol says it could be worse.....
I perhaps should have clarified what I really meant by planned. I just meant in terms of the layout or footprint of the city. I mean that as and when it has expanded they just extend whichever street or avenue and build grid like blocks as oppose to the more ad hoc way that European cities seem to have developed. Toronto is a victim of short sighted investment in public infrastructure and expanding at such a rapid rate that it is virtually impossible to keep up with....a victim of its own success if you will.
Toronto was a medium sized industrial/ commercial city bumbling along quite happily. Birmingham without the curry if you like. Then Quebec decides that politically & economically speaking French is the most important thing in the world, and suddenly Montreal- Canada's only world class city 40 years ago- is on the rack. As well as the language laws the employment laws start coming in and talk of separation is in the air. What happens? Everyone ups sticks and shifts to Toronto.
We'll never know whether Toronto actually noticed this; they may have raised a glass of Labatt Blue in the general direction of the East and said "cheers". But they certainly didn't sit down and think "Oh look, we're now the commercial capital of Canada, we need A Plan.
Hence the sporadic random growth. The city centre is small. Mississauga. Business throwing up house in spec offices that sprout like weeds alongside all of the expressways. No public transport policy- the TTC would be prefect if Montreal hadn't pressed the self destruct button, or if someone had realised the knock-on effect for TO.
Basically everyone is getting by without a master plan or any concept of one.
#19
Re: Toronto feels Small
Haha, I was going to point that out but held back.
See, I think the critical thing about Toronto is it is not planned or even grown organically, it's grown through a fluke of history and the actions of others. It's the City equivalent of Budweiser or Canadian Club (both of which achieved popularity thanks to prohibition).
Toronto was a medium sized industrial/ commercial city bumbling along quite happily. Birmingham without the curry if you like. Then Quebec decides that politically & economically speaking French is the most important thing in the world, and suddenly Montreal- Canada's only world class city 40 years ago- is on the rack. As well as the language laws the employment laws start coming in and talk of separation is in the air. What happens? Everyone ups sticks and shifts to Toronto.
We'll never know whether Toronto actually noticed this; they may have raised a glass of Labatt Blue in the general direction of the East and said "cheers". But they certainly didn't sit down and think "Oh look, we're now the commercial capital of Canada, we need A Plan.
Hence the sporadic random growth. The city centre is small. Mississauga. Business throwing up house in spec offices that sprout like weeds alongside all of the expressways. No public transport policy- the TTC would be prefect if Montreal hadn't pressed the self destruct button, or if someone had realised the knock-on effect for TO.
Basically everyone is getting by without a master plan or any concept of one.
See, I think the critical thing about Toronto is it is not planned or even grown organically, it's grown through a fluke of history and the actions of others. It's the City equivalent of Budweiser or Canadian Club (both of which achieved popularity thanks to prohibition).
Toronto was a medium sized industrial/ commercial city bumbling along quite happily. Birmingham without the curry if you like. Then Quebec decides that politically & economically speaking French is the most important thing in the world, and suddenly Montreal- Canada's only world class city 40 years ago- is on the rack. As well as the language laws the employment laws start coming in and talk of separation is in the air. What happens? Everyone ups sticks and shifts to Toronto.
We'll never know whether Toronto actually noticed this; they may have raised a glass of Labatt Blue in the general direction of the East and said "cheers". But they certainly didn't sit down and think "Oh look, we're now the commercial capital of Canada, we need A Plan.
Hence the sporadic random growth. The city centre is small. Mississauga. Business throwing up house in spec offices that sprout like weeds alongside all of the expressways. No public transport policy- the TTC would be prefect if Montreal hadn't pressed the self destruct button, or if someone had realised the knock-on effect for TO.
Basically everyone is getting by without a master plan or any concept of one.
#20
Re: Toronto feels Small
Well, with the exception that if those pesky Qubeccers hadn't so thoroughly shot themselves in the feet- then kept the gunfire going up their legs- there wouldn't be a GTA in it's present day form and Oakville/ Burlington might still be small lakefront towns.
#21
Re: Toronto feels Small
Bill 401 also had a significant influence on the Kitchener-Waterloo area; all those insurance companies were once in Quebec.
#22
Re: Toronto feels Small
In the sense that it demonstrates that town planners are about as much use as weather forecasters, I suppose it might be. If Toronto was planned, and I find the idea far fetched, how come the planners didn't think of the idea of making it easy to move around the city and/or in and out of the city? Why didn't they think of the idea of having separate systems for sewage and ground waste water so there'd be no need to set turds bobbing in the lake?
Roads, extensive subways and sewers existed in European cities while Torontonians were chasing the natives off the land and setting up their piggeries.
Furthermore, if it was planned, why is it so ugly? Why aren't the AGO and the Harbourfront III Condos, for example, concealed underground?
Roads, extensive subways and sewers existed in European cities while Torontonians were chasing the natives off the land and setting up their piggeries.
Furthermore, if it was planned, why is it so ugly? Why aren't the AGO and the Harbourfront III Condos, for example, concealed underground?
He managed to get several traffic lights adjusted during a 3 year tenure.
It's not that he didn't try to do more but with politics and people being so short sighted and people only seeing to the end of their own noses you end up limited in what you are actually able to run with.
Then there is getting the changes through lengthy approval processes and changing administrations. Often by the time they occur the situation they were to resolve has moved on.
In Toronto the inability to make decisions and then run with the ball when they do is what kills the place.
In the last election for City Hall I had nearly 30 possible candidates to vote for. How could I ever understand their policies who what their mandate was when there was so many.
Then once the individual is in City Hall they have no parties so voting is inconsistent and runs all over the place.
The Gardiner is a prime example of a failure to organise effectively and make a clear decision. I'll be amazed if they ever end up doing this "Hybrid" conversion.
The same with Smart Track.
It's a miracle they got a train from the airport to Union although that was driven by external pressure.
#23
Re: Toronto feels Small
We'll never know whether Toronto actually noticed this; they may have raised a glass of Labatt Blue in the general direction of the East and said "cheers". But they certainly didn't sit down and think "Oh look, we're now the commercial capital of Canada, we need A Plan.
#24
Re: Toronto feels Small
Yeah- I think it's no coincidence that east London (real London) has the best road network as you can demolish and build for miles before coming across a posh, politically connected enclave- Wansted being the exception.
Compare that to North/ West even South where sooner or later you're going to go through the backyard of one of the Queen's rellies.
Compare that to North/ West even South where sooner or later you're going to go through the backyard of one of the Queen's rellies.
I have a brother who was in Town Planning for a while up near Leamington Spa.
He managed to get several traffic lights adjusted during a 3 year tenure.
It's not that he didn't try to do more but with politics and people being so short sighted and people only seeing to the end of their own noses you end up limited in what you are actually able to run with.
Then there is getting the changes through lengthy approval processes and changing administrations. Often by the time they occur the situation they were to resolve has moved on.
In Toronto the inability to make decisions and then run with the ball when they do is what kills the place.
In the last election for City Hall I had nearly 30 possible candidates to vote for. How could I ever understand their policies who what their mandate was when there was so many.
Then once the individual is in City Hall they have no parties so voting is inconsistent and runs all over the place.
The Gardiner is a prime example of a failure to organise effectively and make a clear decision. I'll be amazed if they ever end up doing this "Hybrid" conversion.
The same with Smart Track.
It's a miracle they got a train from the airport to Union although that was driven by external pressure.
He managed to get several traffic lights adjusted during a 3 year tenure.
It's not that he didn't try to do more but with politics and people being so short sighted and people only seeing to the end of their own noses you end up limited in what you are actually able to run with.
Then there is getting the changes through lengthy approval processes and changing administrations. Often by the time they occur the situation they were to resolve has moved on.
In Toronto the inability to make decisions and then run with the ball when they do is what kills the place.
In the last election for City Hall I had nearly 30 possible candidates to vote for. How could I ever understand their policies who what their mandate was when there was so many.
Then once the individual is in City Hall they have no parties so voting is inconsistent and runs all over the place.
The Gardiner is a prime example of a failure to organise effectively and make a clear decision. I'll be amazed if they ever end up doing this "Hybrid" conversion.
The same with Smart Track.
It's a miracle they got a train from the airport to Union although that was driven by external pressure.
#25
Re: Toronto feels Small
They did manage to demolish one end of it and replace it with a wide fast road cutting the neighbourhood off from the lake. A road known locally at the time as the Jack Layton Parkway. Nothing is better for that having been done so I think we should all hope nothing is done with the rest of it.
#26
Re: Toronto feels Small
They did manage to demolish one end of it and replace it with a wide fast road cutting the neighbourhood off from the lake. A road known locally at the time as the Jack Layton Parkway. Nothing is better for that having been done so I think we should all hope nothing is done with the rest of it.
I've always wondered how those big communist looking blocks ended up either side of it.
#28
Re: Toronto feels Small
Cheers beers & I'm now off to make pancakes for late breakfast. Oh yes I am.
#29
Re: Toronto feels Small
Back in the early 80's when we moved from Toronto to Wellington NZ, not only was it a culture shock it was like going back to 1950's small town UK
Our son was totally shocked that there was only one McDonalds, it being at the foot of Cuba St
My wife though was impressed with the BYO
Windy Wellington, beats it all ...
Our son was totally shocked that there was only one McDonalds, it being at the foot of Cuba St
My wife though was impressed with the BYO
Windy Wellington, beats it all ...