FlyingDutchman6666

Ok Former Lancastrian, let's see...

31 says that if I'm outside Canada and I don't have a PR card, then CBSA will assume I'm not a permanent resident. No problem - I can travel to Canada with just a passport even without being a PR. Just like a visitor.

148 refers to commercial operators, not to individual travellers.

259 defines travel documents suitable for entering Canada. A normal passport is such a document.

So where's the legal requirement that I, the traveller, must be in possession of a PR card?

If there is no legal basis, then why are PRs w/o PR card being given "a hard time" or "the gears" upon entering? Are CBSA making it up as they go along?

Siouxie

A COPR is the legal document that shows you are a PR so surely, if you carry that (and it corresponds with the stamp in your passport) a commercial carrier (which would include an airline) would allow a person to fly as they can 'prove' they are a bona fide Permanent Resident anyway (regardless of their pp)?

Former Lancastrian

If you note the sections are from IRPA which is a Federal Statute that CBSA administers on behalf of CIC.
The link to the manual is a CIC manual not a CBSA one.
The COPR form itself is not prima facia evidence of PR status though CBSA accepts them as supporting documents.

2.1. Objectives of the PR card
The PR card was designed to:
• stop abuse of the Immigrant Visa and Record of Landing (IMM 1000) by individuals, people-smuggling organizations, and potential terrorists and criminals;
• introduce a secure, machine-readable document, easily verified by airlines and foreign control agencies in accordance with international standards;
• implement a secure process for issuance;
• confirm the status of permanent residents for return travel to Canada.
• oblige transportation companies to request this card prior to boarding passengers who claim to reside in Canada as permanent residents;

If you read CIC Enforcement Manual 27 everything relates to CIC as opposed to CBSA. Even if you check the official CIC website which is now under the Govt of Canada the following can be found

Get a permanent resident card
The permanent resident card (PR card) is the official proof that you are a permanent resident of Canada. You use this wallet-sized plastic card to show you can enter and stay in Canada when you return from another country.

You must show this card when you re-enter Canada on a commercial vehicle, such as an airplane, boat, train or bus. If you return to Canada in a private vehicle, such as your car, there are other documents you can use.

If you plan to leave Canada, check your card’s expiry date to make sure that it will still be valid when you return. Most cards are valid for five years.

If you do not plan to leave Canada, you do not need the card.

You may also need a passport to re-enter Canada. Please see the Canadian Border Services Agency website for the documents you will need at the border.

From my perspective everybody who has landed since 28 June 2002 should have been issued with a PR card. The card is valid for 5 years. If travelling with no card and you are referred into Immigration secondary then if you have to wait up to a couple of hours to be seen and then questioned about your status then be my guest. The onus is on YOU to prove you are a PR. You might even end up being given a proof of residency requirement form to produce at a later date which is not a 5 minute form to fill in either. If the computer systems are down then your examination will be deferred which will mean another trip back to a CBSA office that could be a couple of hours away which you MUST attend.
Don't shoot the messenger

Shirtback

Which, in the OP's situation, shouldn't be too hard ? (Verifiable departure from Canada to Florida for vacation & return?) Payslips, school/uni records, copy of application for replacement card & receipt?

Anecdotal evidence from my own/family members' experiences:

Circa 2003, major backlogs in PR Card issuance led to some of us travelling without cards, but with confirmation of an application in progress. I didn't want to take any risks & spent the best part of a day getting the travel document in London. On arrival back at YUL, CBSA remarked that he would have let me back in without it, given evidence of an application in progress, & departure from Canada 2 weeks earlier.

Son in similar situation some years later didn't bother with travel document, returned with no problems/no questions asked.

In 2012, other son blithely waltzed off to Europe without his expired PR card. On arriving back in Canada, sent to secondary (quite rightly), questioned, thoroughly checked (4+ hours), admitted with polite "suggestion" to renew card PDQ.

In 2013, I realised when packing to fly on emergency notice, that my card had just expired (no excuse, I should have made sure it was up to date). In the panic situation I was in, I grabbed tax returns & payslips, But managed to forget to take expired card with me. CBSA let me back in with no secondary questioning/reproaches, & didn't ask for any in depth proof of claim to PR.

In all the above incidents, the protagonists travelled on British passports, and airlines involved (AT, AC, KLM) did not require or request proof of PR for return flights to Canada.


SB

danfolkestone

United Airlines refused to check me in without my PR card when I was flying from Denver in March 2013. Fortunately, I did have the card - it had fallen out of its proper place, but was still in my hand luggage. Before I found it, they made absolutely clear that I was not boarding the plane without it.

FlyingDutchman6666

In short, CBSA are saying: there is no legal requirement we can think of right now, but we make the rules, and you better follow them or else.

Pretty shocking.

Gozit

This issue seems like the issue of dual Canadian-other citizen traveling back to Canada on a one-way ticket on his foreign passport because he is too lazy to get a Cdn passport/cant afford it/just doesn't have one because their other passport is better (They cost $270 to renew from abroad now!)

CBSA says you have to enter on a Canadian passport in order to prove Cdn citizenship, but in reality you can enter with a foreign passport and Cdn birth certificate and/or citizenship card and they will admit you as a citizen

DandNHill

I never said I wanted further help...just that he was working it out...based on info I received on here (thank you lots) and other snippets he has picked up

DandNHill

"Kid" is 22 so took responsibility of his own...

Steve_

And the reason I keep bringing it up in these threads is because I was in a situation where I am absolutely certain I would have been denied boarding if I hadn't pulled out my card, the guy at the gate told me so. This was when it was first introduced, why they waited until I was at the gate to tell me this I'm not sure but they were being super strict on enforcing it. There's always the jobsworth factor.

Anyway it may have been discussed to death but it will all be rendered moot in the middle of next year by CETA. CETA will be for visitors and clearly you aren't one if you are a permanent resident, so no CETA approval and no other documentation = denied boarding.

Gozit

Elaborate on CETA? Please don't tell me Canada is introducing some stupid ESTA-like system for European travelers !

JAJ

Scheduled to be in place from mid-2015.
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/departm...2013-12-06.asp

Australia has had a similar system for many years.

Gozit

Great...