Pizzawheel

Hi John- here's an extract from the article I linked to:

The whole article is well worth reading as it does contradict some of the opinions above, and the credentials of the author- who has been involved in the application process on both sides of the ocean- lend credence to his conclusion.

I don't want to make this thread about my application, which is to all intents and purposes dead, but I should answer your comment on the ERC. The ERC interview is to establish that you have sufficient experience to compensate for the absence of a subject in your academic qualification. IE if your degree has insufficient electronics to tick the ARC box, but you have substantial experience to compensate, that would be acceptable. As my exams are all out of discipline I have zero experience in any of them, so the ERC would work.

I have tried the alternative province route which I do know has worked for others before me, but this did not work, although one contact in that second province advised my application would have been passed without query if I had applied there first. As I said, the treatment of internationally qualified candidates does vary from province to province though Engineers Canada is attempting to harmonise this.

cheers!

not2old

Pizzawheel @post #16

Confirmatory Exam Program

How many exams do you have to do?

I'm guessing, from the list in Electrical Engineering including some of the core subjects?

http://www.engineerscanada.ca/sites/...syllabus_2.pdf

http://www.engineerscanada.ca/sites/...syllabus_3.pdf

http://www.engineerscanada.ca/sites/...llabus_4_7.pdf

Thermodynamics, Properties of Materials + at least one other is usually the pet favourites. As they say 'you need to be an all rounded Engineer', not just discipline specific.

My suggestion if you want your P.Eng (and you cannot turn back whats done) is to do the exams.

For anyone coming over wanting to go straight to an application in Ontario - as mentioned up thread, wait minimum 2 years - better though 3 maybe 5 years then apply

For reference, the full examination syllabus, I don't know if this is current

Examination Syllabus | Engineers Canada

johntheScot

That is quite astonishing that they do not honor the Washington accord. looking at their web site they do not even mention it. i thought it was a given but i learnt something new with this all the western Canada associations follow the accord.

Not sure how engineers Canada can sign the accord without the associations being in agreement but thats a debate for another day.

I have only one suggestion, you move to a more enlightened forward thinking province like SK

I was also interested in your comment about engineers being worse off here i have found wages to be 30-50% higher here than the UK. We are starting new grads on $60K about 34 GBP average starting grad in the uk is 21-26K and i'm in civil so that not inflated oil/gas/mining money.

Pizzawheel

From memory:

As an electrical engineer, about 7, all electronics
As a mechanical engineer, probably 2, machinery design
As a buildings engineer, also probably 2, structural & geotech design.

(I say probably as I haven't actually challenged the exams assigned, but in the two disciplines I would consider (Mech & Building) there are each clearly two I do not have in my degree, nor compensatory experience for)

It would be easier as John says to move to a more enlightened province, or instead of learning these interesting new engineering subjects, moving to Quebec (where I believe they recognise European qualifications straight up without the Washington accord!). Also I'm as flabbergasted as John, and I fear some of this may have split over into my communications. Looks like this thread was worthwhile- best to be forewarned before landing in ON!

The earnings comparison also depends how you compare cost of living, as a thumb suck I would have considered 2:1 ie you need to pull double in dollars compared to what you would in sterling to have the same standard of living. Depends how much beer and cheese you consume I guess!

not2old

small point

from what I remember & I dont know the current stats, is that there are approx 12,000 engineering university grads each year.

That in Ontario there are approx 80,000 licensed Engineers & BC with 29,000. The other provinces I haven't a clue how many licensed Engineers there are

The percentage of 'Engineering' types licensed domestic & foreign qualified certified in those countries that come to Canada is about 30%

The question always is 'why get licensed'?

I understand the need for the 'protection of the public' as well as 'protection of the designation' - with some Civil, Mechanical & Electrical Engineers doing work that needs (as Engineers Canada say) have to be licensed.

Small minded Engineering profession regulated & controlled by crusty old toffs, most that likely were Brits that made it that way

JAJ

PEO do mention the Accord.
http://www.peo.on.ca/index.php/ci_id/21207/la_id/1.htm

If there is a specific, documented case of PEO refusing to accept a Washington Accord accredited qualification, then it's up to the individual concerned what do so. Either accept it, or make formal complaints through all possible channels, including Engineers Canada, the Engineering Council U.K. and the Washington Accord administration authority. Ultimately, if Canadian provincial authorities refuse to accept the Accord, then the outcome should be that Canada ought to withdraw from (or be expelled from) the Washington Accord.

johntheScot

they do not mention the accord on their academic requirements page or international engineering graduates page.

the page you linked also states they can still set exams

"mutual recognition agreements (MRAs) relating to the recognition of educational qualifications for licensing, which have made the assessment of education obtained outside Canada less onerous for provincial regulators, while still enabling them to assign technical examinations to applicants covered by an MRA, if necessary."

form the Washington accord "Each signatory will make every reasonable effort to ensure that the bodies responsible for registering or licensing professional engineers to practice in its country or territory accept the substantial equivalence of engineering academic programmes accredited by the signatories to this agreement."

PEO is not bound by the accord they did not sign it. Engineers Canada is not breaking the accord as all they need to do is make "reasonable effort" to ensure it is accepted. As engineering is regulated at the provincial level and not by engineers Canada there is very little engineers Canada can do about this.

As for documented cases i have no personal experience of this and everyone i know personally with accord degrees has had no issues(did not even know this was an issue until last week). A search in Google or this forum however does turns up cases of this occurring.

JAJ

Except that Engineers Canada is comprised of the provincial bodies and should not be part of the Accord if its members are not also in agreement. If this is a systematic problem in Canada's provinces, and Engineers Canada is unable or unwilling to resolve it, then the other Accord signatories should have to reflect on whether they wish Canada to remain part of the Accord or not.


Unless you see a documented, real-life case where the Washington Accord has been blatantly ignored, perhaps give the benefit of the doubt. There may be something other relevant detail that has not been shared. Perhaps the degree was pre-1989, or was not fully recognized in the U.K., or perhaps in an engineering stream/specialism that exists in the U.K. but not in Canada. Or perhaps the question relates not to recognition of the academic degree, but of experience or the CEng designation (neither of which are covered by the Accord).

For the benefit of anyone else, perhaps investigate the recognition/accreditation process before committing to a Canadian province.

And if a specific problem with recognition is encountered, that is prima-facie in breach of the Accord, it must be better to escalate it, with documentation, to Engineers Canada, the Washington Accord secretariat and the home institute in the U.K. Instead of just accepting it (defeatist).

Pizzawheel

Effectively Engineers Canada should not have been at the Washington Accord table- each individual province should have been.


It's an engineering stream not recognised in Canada.

Agreed- hence this thread!

I'd sooner fix the problem at source, and get the discipline recognised. Not so much to help the odd incoming expat with this degree, but more to allow Canadians to study in this field and develop a generation of home (Canadian) grown specialists. Ultimately that's good for Canada.

By the way- JohntheScot you have a PM.

johntheScot

I dont think this issue is wide spread but each provincial body is free to regulate the profession in their own province.

I would assume there was a vote with the majority of provinces in favor of signing the accord before engineers Canada signed the accord and it seems the majority of provinces follow it.

but from engineers Canada web site.
"International agreements are intended to simplify the evaluation of a candidate's qualifications. They do not override the provincial or territorial engineering regulatory bodies’ authority to evaluate and grant licenses in Canada, according to their legislation. "

so even engineers Canada recognizes that the regulators to not need to follow the accord.

are the cases of this happening real? I have no idea as i have said in my previous thread but when people post threads such as "Any engineers having issues with PEO not recognizing UK degrees covered by Washington accord. I am in that situation, any suggestions welcome. Thanks in advance. " I can only assume they have a degree covered by the accord and are not referencing to their experience or CEng.

Would seem an odd subject to troll on but you never know. We seem to be having a good go at each other so maybe its worked!

The OP's case was in relation to discipline and i do not think they claimed the degree should have been covered under the accord.


Are Engineers Canada breaking the accord. as per my previous post I don't think so. The accord recognizes that the signatories are not necessarily the governing bodies/regulators all EC need to do is "every reasonable effort" ensure compliance from these regulators. It does not say "must ensure" as EC has no authority to dictate how each province regulates engineering im not sure what EC can do about the situation. if such situation exist as i will reiterate i have not seen anyone's letter of rejection from PEO or their degree certificate certified as a true copy by a notary public or someone of similar standing to confirm their academic qualification does indeed meet the requirements of the accord as this seems to be the standard of evidence required before comment on an internet forum.

Should EC be a member of the accord? yes for the majority of people it makes life a lot easier. would it have been better if they had signed all members of EC to some form of binding agreement before signing the accord? yes.

If i were in a situation with an accord degree that was not recognized i would appeal as far as i could. However to "escalate" to EC or anyone else implies that they have authority over the provincial regulator ie these regulators are answerable to EC which is not the case. Once the regulators appeals process is gone through the only remaining action would be court action if the regulator has in some way broken the Engineering act that goven's the profession within that province.

I think the whole purpose of the thread was to make people aware that they need to check with the province regulator before they move/commit.

I do not however think it unreasonable for someone with an accord degree to think it will be recognized throughout Canada as EC signed the agreement. With this thread the OP has raised the awareness that this may not be the case.

not2old

I'm not saying do not appeal - just think it through

On an appeal, with the time & cost involved, I reckon the applicant going forward has a 50/50 chance of being waived the confirmatory exams.

My old hat thinking is that going the appeal process, If one is prepared to accept to lose an appeal - then go for it. The provincial associations have the resources to drag an appeal out & if necessary, even if the appeal escalates to EC - all while during that time the applicant could have completed the set exams.

The outcome of an appeal at the first step with the provincial association escalates to EC, they may rule to the one noisy appellant a waive of the exams or simply a reduced number of exams.

Then again, if they bend for one, they have to bend further for all that have confirmatory exams

Pizzawheel

The real cases I have seen seem to focus on Ontario. Other complaint's I've seen are either HND qualified CEng's (sorry, that route is not going to cut it internationally) or some that expect the get PEng immediately without the one year qualifying period.

The previous chair of the IET (formerly IEE) had recognition problems here though his was a pre-accord degree, it was at least in a EC-recognised discipline (and to make it even more biter he was born in Canada). He's working elsewhere now.

jimf

I recall this article compared accreditation rules, for the USA rather than Canada but I suspect the principles would be similar. I think you can see it for free if you're an ICE member.

ICE Virtual Library: Is the USA set to dominate accreditation of engineering education and professional qualifications?

Pizzawheel

Yeah that's accessible for MICE only.

On this subject, anyone seen Dr Cabbie?

rachelwood

For members of the IET please go here Canadian Professional Engineers - IET MyCommunity Data and links to types of licence