Steve_

Well yes there is, because one of her children could claim to be a US citizen and then her intent falls apart. One of her children for example could open a bank account, the bank asks what citizenship the child is and the child says, "oh I'm a US citizen". Then enquiries could start as to how they made that claim and the finger gets pointed at the mother.

I always think it is better to be a US citizen and just put up with the paperwork, at least you know where you stand. If it really does bother you, formally renounce. The paperwork really isn't that scary, takes awhile to get the hang of it I suppose but it's not brain surgery.

Just on the point about the IRS not being bothered - I had a relative who was an LPR of the US back in the 1970s. So anyway he got tired of living in the US even though he had children in the US so he moved back to the UK and never filed an I-407. Couple of years pass and out of the blue he got a letter from the IRS announcing an audit - in the UK.

And he did get audited, they sent up a guy from the embassy in London. And moreover the IRS charged my relative for the auditor helping him fill in his 1040s.

Whether they're that bothered nowadays I'm not sure but I always remember him telling me that story.

Steve_

One of the indices listed in the treaty. I think to be safe she should formally renounce. No clearer indication of intent than that. But ask the kids first if they are really certain they have no interest of ever living in the US.

WEBlue

I wanted to hear that she would have no problem continuing to live as solely Canadian, even though by today's rules she would be a dual US/Canadian citizen who needs to have been filing income tax returns. I didn't hear that, really, though a few posters seemed to suggest it at one point or another.

As for her children, I don't think any of them want US citizenship--they've lived their whole lives in Canada and AFAIK do not want to be USCs. (The only member of the family who expressed any interest whatsoever in US citizenship is one grandchild, but that's not possible without her grandmother's help and acknowledgement that she is actually still a USC, which probably won't happen.) So I don't know what will happen to the children as far as FATCA goes

Thank you to everyone who gave an opinion. The discussion has been interesting and illuminating.

Steve_

Well I suppose the logical thing is for the grandkid to agree to pay for the grandmother's and parent's accountant.

WEBlue

Brilliant solution!

JAJ

Understand a few things about forum advice/discussion. There can be a lot of good information but that comes with a tendency to over-think and over-complicate situations. Also a tendency to discuss in terms of letter of the law with not so much account taken of processing and enforcement cultures. In other words, especially at the margin, the reality of what is actually enforced/expected does not always match with the exact wording of the law.

In general, a U.S. born person in Canada, with Canadian citizenship, should clarify in his or her mind whether he or she wants to continue in life as a dual U.S./Canadian citizen or as a sole Canadian citizen. And that should then involve either documenting loss of U.S. citizenship, with appropriate tax formalities (if applicable). Or retaining U.S. citizenship, which requires being U.S. tax compliant going forward - but carries significant advantages as well.

That said, a person who is aged 80+, and became a Canadian citizen long ago, believed in good faith that U.S. citizenship was lost at the time, and has not had any interaction with the United States (as a citizen) since then, may not need to make documenting loss of U.S. citizenship a high priority. Unless there are some special circumstances (high net worth etc) we've not been told about.

You're looking for certainty where none exists. All that can be discussed are options and possible consequences.

Normally the obligation is on a person with a possible claim to derivative U.S. citizenship to evidence that claim, not the other way around. In other words, it's the opposite of the situation for those born in the U.S.

So if they never claim to be Americans, and never document a U.S. citizenship claim (or had one documented for them as a child), it's hard to see how the United States will in some way claim them as citizens.

MarylandNed

You're talking about history - the future can't be predicted. Remember that the US is now much more aggressive in looking for opportunities to find and tax the assets of USCs abroad. Who really knows how much further this effort will go? As I said before, the mother has a Canadian passport record that indicates that she was born in the US. The children have Canadian passport records that indicate who the mother is. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that a simple database query could produce a list of possible USCs that includes all of them. That's why I think it would be prudent to get something in writing that clearly communicates the mother's claim that she intended to relinquish US citizenship when she became Canadian.

JAJ

Having an American born or American citizen parent doesn't in itself make someone an American citizen.

The future can't be predicted, however that doesn't mean that clearly unrealistic scenarios should be assumed as possible. The idea that the United States will start assuming that everyone with a U.S. parent is a U.S. citizen unless proven otherwise - really, is there any chance that will happen? Not without a change in the Immigration & Nationality to confer automatic U.S. citizenship on children of U.S. parents, and there's no sign of that happening anytime soon.

For now I see nothing that would oblige a Canadian, late in life, to document whether or not loss of U.S. citizenship really occurred 50 years ago, when the working assumption at the time was different. Obviously, you take a different view. And perhaps in an ideal situation that would be the best option, however in a specific case, where someone is elderly and frail, it may be an unnecessary burden.

It would be more important, in a situation where the children wanted to be U.S. citizens, to document things sooner rather than later.

MarylandNed

Well if she is still a USC, doesn't it sound like her kids are too? She seems to have fulfilled the residency requirements to pass on US citizenship by descent does she not? How much of a burden is it to sign a piece of paper clarifying her situation? Someone else can type it up for her and witness it.

dbd33

That would make no difference to her; she's old, the US isn't after her, for her it would achieve nothing. The only way a statement of intent could matter is if her children, or their children, wanted to use it to bolster their case to be US citizens. For that purpose it has to say that she didn't intend to relinquish her citizenship. A document saying she did intend to is of no use to anyone; no one is saying the children are Americans and it's fanciful to think that, unless they claimed to be, anyone ever would.

I must admit though that I quite fancy the idea of governments engaging armies of Citizen Claimers; agents who circle the earth looking for people with weak claims on citizenships they didn't know they might have and claiming them for the nation. I imagine well dressed figures of the doorstep, like Mormon missionaries, demanding that people refute the assertion that they're Americans or Lithuanians or Peruvians or otherwise Kafkaesque.

MarylandNed

The letter is not for the mother. After all, she can state whatever she likes about what her intent was regarding her US citizenship (assuming she's still lucid). The letter is really for the children.

Yes, I agree. They are probably going to be fine unless one of them decides to apply for a US passport. Then what about the others who don't want to be USCs? A letter stating the mother's intent to relinquish her US citizenship helps them prove that they are not USCs (although they could always renounce US citizenship if necessary). Also, her relinquishing her US citizenship is the scenario that she and the children all seem to want - so why not document it?

It doesn't have to be that far-fetched. Like I already said, a simple database query of Canadian passport records could produce a list of possible US citizens that includes the mother and her children. Who really knows how far Canada will go (or can be pushed) to comply with this nonsense?

Steve_

I don't think it's that fanciful, it's not a question of claiming it, it's a question of the question being asked, where was your mother born? The US? So your mother is American, how long have you been in the US, etc.

Anyway the solution is obvious, either formally renounce or apply for a US passport, remove all doubt and deal with the consequences.

JAJ

I'm all in favour of preparing for a future that may be different from the present, but really ... who's actually going to ask? The United States is not likely to start assuming that those with U.S. parents are citizens, and entitled to all the benefits of United States citizenship when a substantial number of those with American parents aren't even U.S. citizens to begin with.

MarkG

Except America is bankrupt, and needs all the tax money it can get. Better to get it from people who don't live in America than those who do.

MarylandNed

While focusing on the kids, you forget the mother herself. She was born in the US. You don't need to know much about databases to understand that a simple database query (against Canadian passport records) could identify her as a potential USC through her place of birth.

If the mother is a USC, it's almost certain that her kids are too. It certainly sounds like she has fulfilled the US residency requirements to be able to pass on USC by descent. That possibility might even be deduced from the same passport records e.g. the time between her birth and when she got married or first showed up in Canada. If the kids also have Canadian passports, their passport records will contain details of the mother so they could also end up on a list of potential USCs through their links to their mother.

Historically the US has never actively gone searching for USCs in such an aggressive manner. The assumption has always been that anyone who had a claim to US citizenship would come forward to claim it and the benefits. But now we're talking about a different situation - one in which the US seems to be intent on actively and aggressively searching for USCs in other countries so that it can collect tax revenue from them.

Who really knows how far this effort will go? "Not likely" is not the same as "definitely won't". When the mitigation (a letter) is so simple, why not just do it? Given the doubt, it seems prudent to write a simple letter that clarifies the situation and have the mother sign it. Someone else can type it up for her and witness it. The effort involved would be much less than the effort we have devoted to this thread.

Regardless of these issues, doesn't it just seem right to clarify the citizenship status of yourself and your kids anyway?