lottoziljon

Being dutch myself I would like to add a couple of points here.

First of all it is true that service in shops and at almost any place you go to (housing agencies, goverment agencies) in Holland is absolutely terrible. That is one of the reasons I chose to emigrate. The social climate has gone down so much in recent years. You brits don't have a "polite"-form of addressing somebody, you say "you" to even the queen. But in the Dutch language we have a polite form which is the same as "Vous" in the French. Most people in Holland seem to have totally forgotten about this courtesy. Even older women are addressed with "jij", which should only be reserved for informal contacts! There was a poster here who described the reaction he got when he went for advice on a new pair of glasses, VERY recognizable. Salespeople in Holland generally don't know anything and don't care, they just stand there to fill up their hours, the only thing they do is take your money. In general, this situation is absolutely horrible. This is combined with a general increase of aggression in society, which is part of the cause of the rise of the right wing parties in Holland. A lot of dutch people are fed up with the antisocial behaviour which has become so normal in Holland and these parties do something against it. Unfortunately this has resulted in "zero-tolerance"-policies, which might solve a lot of problems, but has not increased living quality, we don't want to live in a police state, like England is (how many cameras per square mile do you have now in London, 3000?, and still the riots occurred)

It goes very far, you can go into stores or bars or restaurants, you will not even be greeted, the personal does not have the slightest idea of common courtesy, just a total nightmare.

So on that point I absolutely agree with the criticism brought forward in this thread.

Then I come to my second point, the food, here I absolutely disagree with everything that was said. In general I think most people in Holland eat very healthy. We don't eat prepackaged food! My family and I we have always cooked our food ourselves! Of course it all depends on the persons of course, but in general the dutch are very concerned about eating low fat! Much more so then other European countries. The family cited above who eat salad with Mayonaise during Christmas, they are not normal!

Actually I stayed at an english famly a couple of years ago and the kids there ate Kellog's Cornflakes and other salt, sugar and fat rich foods for breakfast and candybars for lunch! The parents did not make them bread!

Then there was a criticism of the supermarkets. Also nonsense. Of course it is true that supermarkets in Amsterdam are not going to be as clean as in some suburb, but that is true the world over! Albert Heijn is a supermarket I would not buy because it is so expensive. But if you go to any supermarket outside of Amsterdam you will find the supermarkets are very clean and have an especially good selection of milk products! I went to Sainsbury's in England. It is true that is a very nice supermarket comparable to the Hypermarches you find in France. Well, in Holland this is not possible because we don't have so much space, therefore the supermarkets tend to be smaller. If you don't like it, emigrate to a country with more space, like I did!

Then there is the restaurant criticism. I agree there too! In Amsterdam you will not find a good restaurant, there are only junkfood places, places with asian food but questionable hygiene (I would not eat in the redlight district) and overpriced steakhouses where they sell fat ribs and stuff like that. But well, Amsterdam is a dirty town as a whole! I do not understand the criticism though. If you want to dine out all the time then you are obviously one of those convenience eaters! The dutch person is a person who like to save money, so he will cook his own food in his own home using fresh ingredients. So the absence of dozens of restaurants only proves the dutch do their cooking themselves. The restaurants in Amsterdam are for the crowds of people how do Amsterdam for just a weekend: flying in from London, boozing, redlight-district, back to london...

So, all in all. You have some good points when it comes to the service in stores. But when it comes to the food I cannot understand it. There is plenty of good supermarkets where you can buy good meat, good milk products and good vegetables. Buy those and make your own food, nothing holds you back!

Taxes are horrible too! 100% Agreement! The government tries to take your money left and right! Especially the tax on cars is insane!

My final point, why are you guys arguing that we dutch get upset upon criticism. I think I brought a balanced view here.

One final question: what does England have to offer when it comes to food? The BSE crisis is not so so long ago and apart from Fisn and Chips, scrambled eggs and bacon nothing much comes to mind.

gelato

Thanks lotto for the balanced viewpoint. I appreciate that you didn't get defensive. It's hard when it's your own country sometimes.

I just wanted to comment on this though:

I'm an Aussie living in Italy and we eat out a lot - probably at least twice a week. This does not mean we're "convenience eaters". I love to cook and I'm a big foodie so good food both in supermarkets and restaurants are important to me. Here in Italy, the food is very good and most Italians are great cooks but they also eat out pretty much every day at lunch and at least once during the weekend. It's part of the culture and, as a result, the restaurants tend to be good and they are relatively cheap. We usually just go to a pizzeria for dinner and a pizza in a pizzeria costs between 6-10 euro normally. It's pretty similar in Sydney where I'm from. There are tons of really fantastic inexpensive restaurants there - in particular amazing Asian and Southern European food and standards are high. I don't know where you get the idea that Asian or "ethnic" food means poor hygience and quality? Maybe Asian restaurants are like this in the Netherlands but not where I come from. Anyway, it would make me sad if eating out became a luxury. There are a lot of foods which I simply cannot cook at home (pizza for example as we dont' have a wood fired oven!)

ladyice

Going out for dinner in Holland is indeed considered a luxury, we mainly go when we have something to celebrate. Going out to dinner in Holland is relatively expensive here when I compare it to other countries I have been to.
Having said that, the quality of the food in restaurants is much higher than abroad as well.
My English partner says he always gets ill after a take away in England but he has never once became ill from a Dutch take away.
He does not dare reheating rice he bought form an English take away but does it here in Holland without problems.
You cannot compare restaurants in Amsterdam to restaurants in other parts of Holland because indeed, the restaurants in Amsterdam are focused on the fast amounts of tourists that visit the place. I am pretty sure you will not find big groups of Dutch people eating in them establishments.

lottoziljon

Gelato, you're welcome!

I would give you one advice, if you like this "eating-out" culture so much then stay in Italy. You will not find it in Holland. Even take aways are ridiculously expensive and the quality is bad (at least in Amsterdam, where I am from). Holland is a very calvinistic country, saving money is very important. People will not waste money by going out for dinner, they will do so only on special occasions. I think most people in Holland would frown upon going out for dinner twice a week. Most people will cook their dinner themselves, and to be honest, I like my own food (and my mom's the best!

It is just a different culture, I went to Metz/France once and it was not even a warm summer, but there were people sitting on terraces and eating out. It was a very nice atmosphere, which you will not find in Holland. This dining out is more the South-European lifestyle!

In Holland however you will definitely be regarded as a convenience eater if you eat out twice a week.

I did not want to say that asian restaurants are generally unhygienic. I just wanted to say that a lot of asian restaurants in Amsterdam are concentrated in the red-light district (Nieuwmarkt area), I would not eat food in a red light district, just look at how clean it looks there, no thanks.

AHA! Surely you can make your own pizza, it is very easy, instead of a wooden oven I use a regular oven and my pizzas taste just as well as from a real italian. Just take some flour, add some water and olive oil and mix it all together to make a dough. I even grind my own flour from raw grains! You can add yeast also and make it swell up, but then it will be too much like bread so I leave the yeast out. In the meanwhile half-bake some minced meat and add italian herbs and tomatosauce. Then put the dough in a form, put on the minced meat, add some more herbs, add all kinds of cheese, ansjovis and whatever you like, then more cheese and put it in the oven for 30-40 minutes and then that is the best pizza you have ever eaten. Don't forget to drink lots of italian wine during cooking.
Have fun!

gelato

Sorry to be a snob but that's not an Italian pizza. Maybe I've been here too long - I might have eaten that back when I lived in Australia and thought that was pizza.

It's weird that the Dutch are so into saving money since they're one of the richest countries in the world - far richer than Italy.

extexan68

You know it really doesn't matter what everyone else thinks of a country as it all comes down to the person living there if they will like it or not.
I love living here but I don't think there are many other countries that I would like to live in as much as I do here in NL.

So as much bashing you see about Holland, I feel it is ultimately more about the person then the country. Doesn't mean the person is really wrong just that the country isn't the right fit for them. Also if they can't get past some of the negatives to living abroad (and there will ALWAYS be negatives) then they will never be happy. And I feel one of the most important things to do is to NOT compare it to "back home" Different country different cultures neither are wrong!

Gelato, just becasue NL is "rich" doesn't mean the people are its the government that has all the money!

jeffingermany

I guess you have never been in Limburg.

gelato

What I meant by that is not just the general health of the economy but the fact that salaries are much higher in NL than here in Italy and living costs much lower.

lottoziljon

Thas is true, I have never been there. The catholic south has a different culture and is more "gezellig" as we dutch people say. I guess you have more of the "burgundic" feeling there, if you know what I mean.

Unfortunately I was born in the calvinistic west of Holland.

lottoziljon

That is pretty snobby, yes!

Saving money is part of calvinism. In that religion, enjoying life is considered sinn. Saving money and counting your pennies is the highest virtue. For some people it might be difficult to be believe that something like "calvinism" might underpin modern dutch society. You will find out if you have to deal with the government, they will take your pennies. And it is very much present in the minds of the people. One example which I have personally experienced: how many people in the world would recycle a single tea bag multiple times during the morning? Seriously, I will not use a teabag that has been already used twice by a colleague of mine and pressed out with bare fingers in front of me. I will get a new teabag, you will get the rolled eyes in Holland for that though. No joke...

Extexan: Yes we have high taxes, therefore we have 100% healthcare coverage though, nobody has to go bankrupt because they have to have surgery, like in Bush/Obama country.

Balance is the key word here, it seems to have been lost on both sides of the Atlantic.

gelato

Oh yuk! You're joking, right?

My husband's family is Catholic. Not sure if that makes a difference. They're not practicing Catholics though.

snowbunny

Even compared to that country called Texas?!

Eating out is fairly inexpensive here. Cooking from scratch can cost more, depending on what you eat.

snowbunny

Dutch Catholic? They might party more, but they'll still be penny-pinching like mad.

JGT

in my experience of living in amsterdam (this doesn't apply to the rest of the netherlands!) ... obligatory health insurance prices (from around 120 euro/month) though i must say i have found the care here to be absolutely wonderful, A++ and speedy.

housing- if you're renting. on the 'woningnet' list you can wait 10+ years to get a cheap apartment (300-500pm depending on what you're after). in order to get on that list you need to be registered in a fully legal apartment- and open market prices are disgusting (around 1000pm and upwards). am shocked looking at uk private rentals, so cheap in comparison.

lack of space.

supermarkets are naff, compared to the uk.

boring landscape (though the south of nl at least, is beautiful, as is amsterdam).

i find shopping for clothes and shoes awful and overpriced, compared to the uk.

eating out is expensive, especially compared to the uk or germany.

people may seem rude here to brits, it's more that they are short and don't seem to waste time with the whole "yes please, if you don't mind, thank you x 10" dance-around that we brits are accustomed to.

there are many plusses (i feel VERY safe here, it's easy to get around with a bike, interesting people from all over the world, near the beach, lots happening, no 'chavs', international cuisine, banks do not rip you off, no annoying telesales people ringing you 24/7, no real poverty that i have witnessed) but that's another story.

oh. and the tea is CRAP!

Basilito01

Thought i'd add a bit to this thread as I've been living here for a year (originally Australian)
I can see the positives for me, meeting people from all over the world, easy travel around Europe and everyone speaks English so no need to learn Dutch if you don't want to. I also have a good job although i earn about 40% less than I did in Aust, pay a sh*t load more taxes and day to day it's just as expensive as Sydney.
If i could do this all again I would have gone to London. No joy in living in Amsterdam, to me this is the land of average. As people mentioned the food is disgusting, terrible and insanely overpriced. The fact that I still can't count a good restaurant here (and hell I've tried a lot) is crazy.
The Dutch- for the most part , Ok and friendly enough, but their 'square minded' 'possible/not possible' attitude drives me nuts.

IND- forget it. The most beaurocratic load of garbage i've ever encountered, even as an Australian with a EU partner. Absolute rubbish.

I hear lots of Australians that 'used to live here' and they've all left, the only ones I know are married to Dutchies and stuck here.

not recommended unless you like to live in very average standards. I can see for people from Italy and Spain in the current economic climate how it's attractive but don't let it fool you, it is expensive here and taxes are high (not just income tax!) . I'd go to London instead, have plenty of friends living there that don't want to leave.

And finally if you don't believe me
http://www.dutchdailynews.com/unfrie...ountry-expats/