The world of automation
Sep 11th 2017, 12:26 pm
#796
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 14,040
Re: The world of automation
Hah, lets look at a few actual plane disasters.
Etihad airways takes delivery of new 200m pound airbus. They do acceptance testing on the ground, there are about a dozen engineers on board. Part of the test is full brakes on, and run up the engines for a few seconds to 80%. This causes a noisy alarm because you arent supposed to run them up like that in service , the pilot asks an engineer to turn off the noise. On page 793 of the manual it says remove a fuse, which he does and the noise stops.
Unfortunately this tells the plane its flying above 10000 feet, so naturally it takes off the brakes... To be fair there are 2 different explainations, the arabs dont want to appear dumb of course, so here is the link to both, but honestly, complex software+humans=high risk, people died.
The Tale of the Arab Flight Crew
At a french airshow, another airbus was doing a display, it was early in the airbus fly by wire world, and it looks like a software bug. It lowered undercarriage and did a slow run over a runway low. The pilot didnt override the computers as he could have, so they naturally assumed he was going to land and tailored power for that. He wanted full power and to climb away, the plane sulked and he crashed. The french then appear to have hidden the evidence? http://www.crashdehabsheim.net/CRenglish%20phot.pdf
https://youtu.be/-cv2ud1339E
I remember falling asleep on a plane once and being woken by linux. The seat in front had a loose power cable and if kicked it would reboot its [my] screen, which went through a normal linux startup script... On reading it turns out the remote control has power over the scripts execution, Interesting.
Etihad airways takes delivery of new 200m pound airbus. They do acceptance testing on the ground, there are about a dozen engineers on board. Part of the test is full brakes on, and run up the engines for a few seconds to 80%. This causes a noisy alarm because you arent supposed to run them up like that in service , the pilot asks an engineer to turn off the noise. On page 793 of the manual it says remove a fuse, which he does and the noise stops.
Unfortunately this tells the plane its flying above 10000 feet, so naturally it takes off the brakes... To be fair there are 2 different explainations, the arabs dont want to appear dumb of course, so here is the link to both, but honestly, complex software+humans=high risk, people died.
The Tale of the Arab Flight Crew
At a french airshow, another airbus was doing a display, it was early in the airbus fly by wire world, and it looks like a software bug. It lowered undercarriage and did a slow run over a runway low. The pilot didnt override the computers as he could have, so they naturally assumed he was going to land and tailored power for that. He wanted full power and to climb away, the plane sulked and he crashed. The french then appear to have hidden the evidence? http://www.crashdehabsheim.net/CRenglish%20phot.pdf
https://youtu.be/-cv2ud1339E
I remember falling asleep on a plane once and being woken by linux. The seat in front had a loose power cable and if kicked it would reboot its [my] screen, which went through a normal linux startup script... On reading it turns out the remote control has power over the scripts execution, Interesting.
On the flip side, the Qantas A380 out of Singapore. Had the computer been left in charge, they would not have landed.
The incident, at 10:01 a.m. Singapore Standard Time (02:01 UTC), was caused by an uncontained failure of the port inboard (No. 2) engine, while en route over Batam Island, Indonesia.[1][8]
Shrapnel from the exploding engine punctured part of the wing and damaged the fuel system causing leaks and a fuel tank fire,[9][10] disabled one hydraulic system and the anti-lock braking system, caused No. 1 and No. 4 engines to go into a "degraded" mode,[11] damaged landing flaps and the controls for the outer left No. 1 engine.[12] The crew, after finding the plane controllable, decided to fly a racetrack holding pattern close to Changi airport while assessing the status of the aircraft. It took 50 minutes to complete this initial assessment. The first officer and supervising check captain (SCC) then input the plane's status to the landing distance performance application (LDPA) for a landing 50 tonnes over maximum landing weight at Changi.[11] Based on these inputs the LDPA could not calculate a landing distance. After discussion the crew elected to remove inputs related to a wet runway, in the knowledge that the runway was dry. The LDPA then returned the information that the landing was feasible with 100 metres of runway remaining.[13] The flight then returned to Singapore Changi Airport, landing safely after the crew extended the landing gear by a gravity drop emergency extension system,[9][13] at 11:45 a.m. Singapore time.[14][15] As a result of the aircraft landing 35 knots faster than normal,[11] four tyres were blown.[4][16]
Sep 11th 2017, 12:26 pm
#797
I still dont believe it..
Joined: Oct 2013
Location: 12 degrees north
Posts: 2,777
Re: The world of automation
All the universities these days video record all the lectures, not just for the students to miss the lecture but so that next year or the year after maybe they don't actually have to have a lecture, roll on entirely online universities for £4.95 p a year which I'm told already exist in some countries like India.
Sep 11th 2017, 12:46 pm
#798
snɐןɔ ʎʇıuɐs
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 6,558
Re: The world of automation
If i wanted to have 'fun' i'd be looking at the intelsat link, used remotely by the engine makers + boeing and airbus to report live on and control in flight parameters. In more sophisticated uses - how do you think drones work. Taking over an enemies ground station with a 'clone' is a standard military technique to ensure superiority.
Seducing GPS etc. has been a thing for decades.
Sep 11th 2017, 12:59 pm
#799
snɐןɔ ʎʇıuɐs
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 6,558
Re: The world of automation
He is right to a point. A fair degree of learning is repeatable = automation. Teachers who are happy repeating year after year will die. Teachers who want to take automation to achieve results will survive.
After the rope learning is done by automation, in kicks in added value. Like classroom discussion, classroom competition, human interaction.
After the rope learning is done by automation, in kicks in added value. Like classroom discussion, classroom competition, human interaction.
There are two main constituents of cost - teachers salaries, and school buildings. Both can be bought down with such automation. Education takes ~15% of government budget, so if it could be 5% instead ...
And in a related fact, did you know that Amazon's Kindle template during design was "A Young Lady's Illustrated Primer".
Sep 11th 2017, 1:39 pm
#800
Yo
Joined: Nov 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 24,474
Re: The world of automation
Here's another pointer towards automation
AI robots will replace teachers in the classroom, says Sir Anthony Seldon
Mind I don't think he's taken the implications far enough - he's still thinking classrooms.
AI robots will replace teachers in the classroom, says Sir Anthony Seldon
Mind I don't think he's taken the implications far enough - he's still thinking classrooms.
Sep 11th 2017, 2:15 pm
#801
Proudly Deplorable
Joined: May 2003
Location: Alloha snack bar
Posts: 24,246
Re: The world of automation
I could reliably crash the seat back entertainment on an A380 by plugging in a USB stick. I wouldn't bet against being able to take control with a keyboard plugged into that same point during the reboot - it looked like a generic Linux reboot.
Hence why you want an air gap.
Oh, and then there's the bug in the early flight control software of, I think it was an F18, F16 maybe. Where they had a test for zero feeding into an eular angle - which resulted in the plane thinking it was 180 degrees from the orientation it was at - and thus trying to flip the plane upside down to try and 'fix it'.
Bugs, particularly deep seated, inherited, bugs, are more of a problem than AI.
Hence why you want an air gap.
Oh, and then there's the bug in the early flight control software of, I think it was an F18, F16 maybe. Where they had a test for zero feeding into an eular angle - which resulted in the plane thinking it was 180 degrees from the orientation it was at - and thus trying to flip the plane upside down to try and 'fix it'.
Bugs, particularly deep seated, inherited, bugs, are more of a problem than AI.
Get over yourself champ
Sep 11th 2017, 2:19 pm
#802
Proudly Deplorable
Joined: May 2003
Location: Alloha snack bar
Posts: 24,246
Re: The world of automation
I ain't going on no plane that doesn't have a pilot
But you computer nerds party on with your pilotless, err, drones
But you computer nerds party on with your pilotless, err, drones
Sep 11th 2017, 3:14 pm
#804
I still dont believe it..
Joined: Oct 2013
Location: 12 degrees north
Posts: 2,777
Re: The world of automation
No, i do know the seats run linux, its got a logo of a very distinctive penguin, quite disconcerting to see it pop up on your planes monitor.
In the days when men were men and ms windows was a benign virus that ran on ms/dos, there was a great cartoon of 2 pilots looking at their screens, which all displayed c:\
You had to be there to understand... Lates i did some work for eads [airbus] and saw how they did software development. You give a huge spec to 3 different suppliers, and tll them to write in on different hardware platforms, os's and compilers, but all 3 have to checkpoint ech other frequently. If one disagrees, warn the pilot, log it and carry on. If all 3 disagree, hand over to pilot and PANIC! [which means something specific.]
In the days when men were men and ms windows was a benign virus that ran on ms/dos, there was a great cartoon of 2 pilots looking at their screens, which all displayed c:\
You had to be there to understand... Lates i did some work for eads [airbus] and saw how they did software development. You give a huge spec to 3 different suppliers, and tll them to write in on different hardware platforms, os's and compilers, but all 3 have to checkpoint ech other frequently. If one disagrees, warn the pilot, log it and carry on. If all 3 disagree, hand over to pilot and PANIC! [which means something specific.]
Sep 11th 2017, 9:57 pm
#805
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 14,040
Re: The world of automation
In terms of educating facts, it's perfectly possible to do better than most teachers - if only because you can do effective one-to-one and can tailor the speed and type of delivery to the student.
There are two main constituents of cost - teachers salaries, and school buildings. Both can be bought down with such automation. Education takes ~15% of government budget, so if it could be 5% instead ...
And in a related fact, did you know that Amazon's Kindle template during design was "A Young Lady's Illustrated Primer".
There are two main constituents of cost - teachers salaries, and school buildings. Both can be bought down with such automation. Education takes ~15% of government budget, so if it could be 5% instead ...
And in a related fact, did you know that Amazon's Kindle template during design was "A Young Lady's Illustrated Primer".
Regardless, governments aren't going to tax you less because you automated education.
Governments will apply the business rational here. Businesses don't automate to save a few bucks. They automate to make money.
If we can put more educated people on the street because of automation, we will. Teachers will have their place, more people to educate. Plus the human touch, discussion broker, etc, etc.
As you know the proportion of tertiary educated people in the world has risen massively in the past 60 years.
Sep 11th 2017, 10:06 pm
#806
I still dont believe it..
Joined: Oct 2013
Location: 12 degrees north
Posts: 2,777
Re: The world of automation
Saving money vs making more money are the same thing duh...
Yes - lots of tertiary educated people - but we dont put them on the street, thats where we put ex-servicemen, the tertiary educated are working in macdonalds and factory production lines and contact centres.
Yes - lots of tertiary educated people - but we dont put them on the street, thats where we put ex-servicemen, the tertiary educated are working in macdonalds and factory production lines and contact centres.
Sep 12th 2017, 12:20 am
#807
snɐןɔ ʎʇıuɐs
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 6,558
Re: The world of automation
Both stories are attested.
For the first, here is proof that the entertainment systems on an A380 have individual Linux based units : Linux Entertainment in Airbus A380 » Linux Magazine and of course, I did crash mine more than once. I'd guess they would have fixed it by now.
For the second, it was told to me, by an american, and here is mention of it in a risks digest.
The RISKS Digest Volume 3 Issue 44
This says it was in simulation, whereas I was told reality. However sims use the same electronics and code, so it makes little practical difference.
Sep 12th 2017, 12:30 am
#808
snɐןɔ ʎʇıuɐs
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 6,558
Re: The world of automation
That was the number commonly used for the UK in gov budgeting circles. Obviously it depends on what you include (particularly local vs central), or not, but here's a chart in a PDF to show similar figures and range.
https://www.oecd.org/edu/skills-beyo...l/48630949.pdf
https://www.oecd.org/edu/skills-beyo...l/48630949.pdf
Sep 12th 2017, 5:33 am
#809
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 14,040
Re: The world of automation
Saving money vs making more money are the same thing duh...
Yes - lots of tertiary educated people - but we dont put them on the street, thats where we put ex-servicemen, the tertiary educated are working in macdonalds and factory production lines and contact centres.
Yes - lots of tertiary educated people - but we dont put them on the street, thats where we put ex-servicemen, the tertiary educated are working in macdonalds and factory production lines and contact centres.
Yes there will be students working through their 5th degree working in McDonalds. There will also be those without degrees who have years of real world experience working along side those with degrees without real world experience. So what?
Sep 12th 2017, 5:36 am
#810
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 14,040
Re: The world of automation
That was the number commonly used for the UK in gov budgeting circles. Obviously it depends on what you include (particularly local vs central), or not, but here's a chart in a PDF to show similar figures and range.
https://www.oecd.org/edu/skills-beyo...l/48630949.pdf
https://www.oecd.org/edu/skills-beyo...l/48630949.pdf
Govts will never use automation to save money on education spend. Apart of saving money which they won't do when it comes to education its also political suicide.