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Old Jan 1st 2018, 4:38 am   #91
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Default Re: TRADE UNIONS..hmmm

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Originally Posted by Beoz View Post
Rubbish. (Mind the pun). There are plenty of unions for cleaners.
Repeat one more time. There is a lot of abuse and exploitation within the cleaning industry. Much of it is not unionised and rely on casual labour, where hiring and firing is done at ease. Another subject you are obviously unfamiliar with.
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Old Jan 1st 2018, 5:47 am   #92
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Default Re: TRADE UNIONS..hmmm

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Repeat one more time. There is a lot of abuse and exploitation within the cleaning industry. Much of it is not unionised and rely on casual labour, where hiring and firing is done at ease. Another subject you are obviously unfamiliar with.
Very unionised. Also plenty of casual jobs out there. Hospitality for starters. Casual classing gets higher pay to accomodate. Of course you would want the cake and eat too. Me me me
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Old Jan 1st 2018, 7:59 am   #93
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Default Re: TRADE UNIONS..hmmm

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Very unionised. Also plenty of casual jobs out there. Hospitality for starters. Casual classing gets higher pay to accomodate. Of course you would want the cake and eat too. Me me me
You've really no idea have you? Under payment and abuse ripe in the industry. Old hat well known. Hospitality. Another area of wide spread abuse.


Cake and eat it furthers points to the irrelevance of your posts.
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Old Jan 1st 2018, 8:40 am   #94
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Default Re: TRADE UNIONS..hmmm

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You've really no idea have you? Under payment and abuse ripe in the industry. Old hat well known. Hospitality. Another area of wide spread abuse.

Cake and eat it furthers points to the irrelevance of your posts.
Thanks for clarifying the discrimination then.

The ALP target cleaners because its a selling point but instead discriminate against other occupations such as hospitality workers.

BTW under payment in Australia is not rife. In fact its the best in the world.

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Old Jan 1st 2018, 9:02 am   #95
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Default Re: TRADE UNIONS..hmmm

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Originally Posted by Beoz View Post
Thanks for clarifying the discrimination then.

The ALP target cleaners because its a selling point but instead discriminate against other occupations such as hospitality workers.

BTW under payment in Australia is not rife. In fact its the best in the world.

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/i...w-l8nhd7qs0TTO
It's the unions that have led to that minimum payment, if you cannot see that then you are living in cloud cuckoo land.

I've pointed you at the underpayment within Aus Post couriers time and time again and the many media stories including ABC coverage. The same applies to non unionised cleaners and non unionsed everything else, especially on contract. They are paid way below the Australian minimum wage. Why that simple proven fact hasn't sunk into you is beyond me. Fact is even today they are on less than 11 dollars an hour gross wage.

As for the Me Me Me comments re unions. When a union in another state wins a break through benefit or award, that benefit is a bench mark to flow through to every other worker in the country, not just unionists. So as far as unionists are concerned, it's "Every worker, Every worker, Every worker"

Now you need to ask your employer why you are not getting the 17.5 pct leave loading that the majority of people get in this country. That's a unique Australian union benefit that the vast majority of people get, including non award wage workers.. There are dozens of little benefits that you aren't aware of that flow through to working people around the country.

Just because you don't get the benefits that those under the award system enjoy, There is no need to consistently spit the dummy about it.

Maybe have a chat to your employer and ask them why you aren't enjoying the many benefits that award employees get.


All I see from you is a constant whinge amounting to sour grapes.


Have a read, and this time do try and pay attention.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-02-2...ements/6189802
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Old Jan 1st 2018, 10:43 pm   #96
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Default Re: TRADE UNIONS..hmmm

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Originally Posted by Beoz View Post
Thanks for clarifying the discrimination then.

The ALP target cleaners because its a selling point but instead discriminate against other occupations such as hospitality workers.

BTW under payment in Australia is not rife. In fact its the best in the world.

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/i...w-l8nhd7qs0TTO
Please save me and show foes the light. I am well aware of the Australian pay structure. I expect the pay rates are the reason you are in Australia? But moving on. You need to get real. Industries such as the cleaning area, are wide open to abuse of foreign workers whether back packers, international students and a wide range of other people included non clued up or vulnerable locals.


Please realise there are plenty out there all too willing to exploit are corrupt with many people little choice and feel no where to turn. Cleaning is but one area.


Thank goodness for things like unions, though far from perfect do/may add a voice to people without one. Laws are all very well but need to be enforced.
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Old Jan 2nd 2018, 1:28 am   #97
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Default Re: TRADE UNIONS..hmmm

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Originally Posted by the troubadour View Post
Please save me and show foes the light. I am well aware of the Australian pay structure. I expect the pay rates are the reason you are in Australia? But moving on. You need to get real. Industries such as the cleaning area, are wide open to abuse of foreign workers whether back packers, international students and a wide range of other people included non clued up or vulnerable locals.


Please realise there are plenty out there all too willing to exploit are corrupt with many people little choice and feel no where to turn. Cleaning is but one area.


Thank goodness for things like unions, though far from perfect do/may add a voice to people without one. Laws are all very well but need to be enforced.
Do you have any evidence of wide spread exploitation in the cleaning industry or are you sucking up the first paragraph of the left wing article as per usual?

I see some penalty rates missed, (oddly where the cleaner is paid above the award) and other benefits, all originating out of Victoria, one of the most unionised states in Australia.

This still does not excuse the ALP discrimination of other occupations.

Perhaps you need to get a real as you say.
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Old Jan 2nd 2018, 1:38 am   #98
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Default Re: TRADE UNIONS..hmmm

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Originally Posted by ozzieeagle View Post
It's the unions that have led to that minimum payment, if you cannot see that then you are living in cloud cuckoo land.

I've pointed you at the underpayment within Aus Post couriers time and time again and the many media stories including ABC coverage. The same applies to non unionised cleaners and non unionsed everything else, especially on contract. They are paid way below the Australian minimum wage. Why that simple proven fact hasn't sunk into you is beyond me. Fact is even today they are on less than 11 dollars an hour gross wage.

As for the Me Me Me comments re unions. When a union in another state wins a break through benefit or award, that benefit is a bench mark to flow through to every other worker in the country, not just unionists. So as far as unionists are concerned, it's "Every worker, Every worker, Every worker"

Now you need to ask your employer why you are not getting the 17.5 pct leave loading that the majority of people get in this country. That's a unique Australian union benefit that the vast majority of people get, including non award wage workers.. There are dozens of little benefits that you aren't aware of that flow through to working people around the country.

Just because you don't get the benefits that those under the award system enjoy, There is no need to consistently spit the dummy about it.

Maybe have a chat to your employer and ask them why you aren't enjoying the many benefits that award employees get.


All I see from you is a constant whinge amounting to sour grapes.


Have a read, and this time do try and pay attention.

Thousands of workers underpaid, denied entitlements by Australian employers figures show - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
Don't worry about me. My benefits are just fine, negotiated by me, all performance driven, and well beyond what a union will do for me.

And when I say performance driven (or productively driven might be a description that resonates with the typical worker) its a 2 way agreement I have with the employer.

Quite simply that means, if I make you money, I want a cut. Its very lucrative for me and works for the employer because they aren't feeling the burden if the economy has a troubled time.

You see that's the problem your unions have created. All good in the good times, but when the bad times hit, that high minimum wage gets people kicked onto the street. A lower minimum wage allows businesses, especially the small businesses to have a buffer when times are tough, allowing more people to remain employed and subsequently kicking over the economy.

Perhaps you should be asking your union why they haven't negotiated such a productivity based agreement for you.
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Old Jan 2nd 2018, 3:39 am   #99
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Default Re: TRADE UNIONS..hmmm

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Don't worry about me. My benefits are just fine, negotiated by me, all performance driven, and well beyond what a union will do for me.

And when I say performance driven (or productively driven might be a description that resonates with the typical worker) its a 2 way agreement I have with the employer.

Quite simply that means, if I make you money, I want a cut. Its very lucrative for me and works for the employer because they aren't feeling the burden if the economy has a troubled time.

You see that's the problem your unions have created. All good in the good times, but when the bad times hit, that high minimum wage gets people kicked onto the street. A lower minimum wage allows businesses, especially the small businesses to have a buffer when times are tough, allowing more people to remain employed and subsequently kicking over the economy.

Perhaps you should be asking your union why they haven't negotiated such a productivity based agreement for you.

It's not you we are worried about. More the society well being around us and that includes living in a fair and just country without foreigners from countries with far greater inequality attempting the convince us that the implementation of values proven flawed practised in the country they recently left.


A bonus system as exists within the sales/banking industry does not pan out well in other areas. This country voted against individual work place contracts, I'm glad to say back in the nineties.


Instead of complaining about unions doing what they are supposed to do. That being a living wage and entitlements for wages, how about focusing on the impossibility to live on unemployment benefits/ This was certainly not the case fifteen years ago. You may be able to get an understanding into how disadvantaged people without a voice in the normal line of work would be without representation.
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Old Jan 2nd 2018, 3:48 am   #100
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Default Re: TRADE UNIONS..hmmm

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Originally Posted by Beoz View Post
Do you have any evidence of wide spread exploitation in the cleaning industry or are you sucking up the first paragraph of the left wing article as per usual?

I see some penalty rates missed, (oddly where the cleaner is paid above the award) and other benefits, all originating out of Victoria, one of the most unionised states in Australia.

This still does not excuse the ALP discrimination of other occupations.

Perhaps you need to get a real as you say.

Yes I have been witness to employees taking a firm to court here back in 2005. I'm very happy to say I assisted a couple of these people in preparing their case. The contempt of some in small business is astounding. Court settled out of court but they settled for far too little IMO.


Look there have been loads of complaints within that industry. I'm sure if you trawl the internet many will come up.


Australia's visa system as it is allows for regular abuse of especially foreign nationals. No union interference there. Just straight out abuse.
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Old Jan 2nd 2018, 4:23 am   #101
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Default Re: TRADE UNIONS..hmmm

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Originally Posted by the troubadour View Post
Yes I have been witness to employees taking a firm to court here back in 2005. I'm very happy to say I assisted a couple of these people in preparing their case. The contempt of some in small business is astounding. Court settled out of court but they settled for far too little IMO.


Look there have been loads of complaints within that industry. I'm sure if you trawl the internet many will come up.


Australia's visa system as it is allows for regular abuse of especially foreign nationals. No union interference there. Just straight out abuse.
Its now 2018.

So its not widespread and you came across it 13 years ago.

Well well. The drama is falling apart.
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Old Jan 2nd 2018, 6:37 am   #102
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Default Re: TRADE UNIONS..hmmm

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Originally Posted by the troubadour View Post
A bonus system as exists within the sales/banking industry does not pan out well in other areas. This country voted against individual work place contracts, I'm glad to say back in the nineties.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beoz View Post
Quite simply that means, if I make you money, I want a cut. Its very lucrative for me and works for the employer because they aren't feeling the burden if the economy has a troubled time.
I shouldn't worry about him troubadour, he's hopelessly naive about the real world. He probably thinks the cleaners should be negotiating their individual contracts with performance bonuses, and looking down on them because they might be turning to unions instead ...

It's a form of libertarian delusion, you usually see it in americans that have been exposed to Rand in their formative years. They just don't seem to be able to understand the real world isn't like that - that real power structures and dynamics don't work that way.
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Old Jan 2nd 2018, 8:03 am   #103
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Default Re: TRADE UNIONS..hmmm

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Its now 2018.

So its not widespread and you came across it 13 years ago.

Well well. The drama is falling apart.


The drama's continue. Worse if anything. A simple search will show you the extent of exploitation in todays or recent Australian context.
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Old Jan 2nd 2018, 8:13 am   #104
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Default Re: TRADE UNIONS..hmmm

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Originally Posted by GarryP View Post

I shouldn't worry about him troubadour, he's hopelessly naive about the real world. He probably thinks the cleaners should be negotiating their individual contracts with performance bonuses, and looking down on them because they might be turning to unions instead ...

It's a form of libertarian delusion, you usually see it in americans that have been exposed to Rand in their formative years. They just don't seem to be able to understand the real world isn't like that - that real power structures and dynamics don't work that way.
Nice try Garry. Fail again.

Firstly you are discriminating and saying things that would cause offence to cleaners. A typical left wing trait but you do claim to be central.

Secondly unions in Australia are dead and buried. The declining members demonstrate that. Though there is a life line. For them to survive they need the backing of governments, business and their members. There's only one way to get backing. Make money for all. Encouraging productivity is one way of doing that. Of course that requires member rewards to make that happen. ...... over to the unions.
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Old Jan 2nd 2018, 8:14 am   #105
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Default Re: TRADE UNIONS..hmmm

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Originally Posted by GarryP View Post
I shouldn't worry about him troubadour, he's hopelessly naive about the real world. He probably thinks the cleaners should be negotiating their individual contracts with performance bonuses, and looking down on them because they might be turning to unions instead ...

It's a form of libertarian delusion, you usually see it in americans that have been exposed to Rand in their formative years. They just don't seem to be able to understand the real world isn't like that - that real power structures and dynamics don't work that way.
I may have once agreed on the point of naivety but I fear something far more odious is taking place than pure ignorance.


Recalls to mind some UK nationals I crossed, brought in on 457's in the finance industry and while temporally themselves were in positions to recruit more from there, with the same mind set and hard core ideological political opinion that took no prisoners. (merciless, could be a term to ) in Quite shocking to my way of thinking.
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