Amazulu

Nice graphs but although there are extremist sections of all religions, the extremist element of islam is what is affecting the west right now - anything else is white noise and denialism

DaveLovesDee

So how do we change the mindset of those who wish us harm? And I'm not just referring to those who are radicalised, those who do the radicalising of others.

Killing them just makes them martyrs, and encourages more to join in the fight against the west.

It was suggested to me that the best way to stop wannabe-jihadists from wanting to join IS in Syria would be to take these wannabees to a desert for a few weeks and tell them to try and survive while getting shot at. These people want something exciting, but when they find out the reality, it's not always as fun as it was shown as. The actual jihadists just want the propaganda tool of having westerners in their ranks (and as people who are less likely to be suspects in an attack on European soil).

BadgeIsBack

In the name of discussion I will make some very practical points, one I've covered already:
a) Cost and trg is an issue - you'd almost have to start with recruits at the academy and it would need to be funded. I accept that PSOs in Aus are armed with little training so maybe I am a bit over cautious here.
b) Of course the police groups are on record of what their choice might be. This is their right but of course there is an element of culture and institutional practise here. There was a time when if you hypothetically gave a British soldier the choice between an assault rifle with 3-round burst or a fully automatic option he would laugh and refuse the automatic option when the same weapon was available in full auto in many other armies in the world. There are other examples of institutional culture.
c) As for promoting gun culture :Australia is a country where we arm the police and gun crime is low. You can't even own an air-rifle - you can in the UK. Iceland - they don't arm the cops but the civilian population are armed to the teeth. The Swiss reservists etc carry their rifles around in public, or used to.


On balance, without funding (etc) and institutional change I don't think the British bobby will be armed any time soon. Of course armed response groups have been around for 25 years so it's not as if it's all jumpers for goalposts.

GarryP

'No evidence' Khalid Masood had links to IS or al-Qaeda - BBC News

So, he's more copying others in both methods and rhetoric than being an actual terrorist with larger scale aims. It does look like he was more the lone dickhead attention seeker than anything else.

Is also notable that Which puts in context the very limited time to understand and react. He was well inside the security service OODA loop - which is a key understanding to be gained from this.

scrubbedexpat098

There is however, every chance that he may have been inspired by the lone wolf call to arms. There may not be a traceable link is what they are saying I think.

Amazulu

Classic IS/muslim extremist scenario

Keep burying your head in the sand

GarryP

Terrorism is never about what they do, it's about why they do it.

A violent act with no purpose, no plan - it's just a violent act.

It looks very much like this was just such an act.

scrubbedexpat098

4 people dead, a city in a panick, a country in a surge of anti-Muslim flag waving, and millions of not just British - Western world's tax payers money spent in upgrading security due to a higher state of alert - There's the purpose of the attack right there.

As for a plan, plans are traceable if you shout your mouth off too much, cruise the streets of London looking for an opportunity and take it, no need for any planning.

They're not the IRA, not every attack has to be sanctioned, the rules have changed

spouse of scouse

I'm glad the media has stopped calling this type of attack the work of a 'lone wolf'. Some of the media, anyway. A wolf uses cunning and skill to attack prey - usually for survival - no correlation at all to these deluded half-wits.

GarryP

Nah, see if that what he aimed to do, his attack would be considered a success. That would be a 'terrorist' attack - he would have had an aim in mind, something the 'terror' was supposed to bring about. It would also only succeed if the city panicked, people were more anti-muslim, money was spent - ie it only works because people react (they didn't).

Doesn't sound like he had any of that in mind. Looks just like he was a loser who wanted to go out making a name for himself.

And you are always going to have copycat losers

scrubbedexpat098

Careful you don't get sand in your ears Like I said the rules have changed, a few more like this then ANY Muslim looking bloke, driving ANY vehicle will make at least some people nervous. When has the plan ever been hatched by the terrorist who blows themselves to shit?

Beoz

Its either related to Islam or its not. At this stage they are saying he had an interest in Jihad - is that related to Islam? It doesn't say.

From the SMH

"Whilst I have found no evidence of an association with IS or al-Qaeda, there is clearly an interest in Jihad," said Neil Basu, Senior National Coordinator for UK Counter Terrorism Policing.

morpeth

I am unaware of radical Christian groups undertaking such terrorist attacks against the West as we have seen these past years. Has any Christian terrorist motivated by the Christian faith blown themselves up committing terrorist acts ? What percentage of the deaths caused by terrorists the last few years have been caused by Christian or Jewish extremists in Western countries ?

GarryP

Well, 5 seconds search led to this from Feb this year :

Christian Terrorist Bissonnette Kills Six at Quebec Mosque

Amazulu

What an asshole (him not you) and he deserves top rot in jail for the rest of his life - but yet more denialism on your part