ozzieeagle

One thing your spot on with is the CIA and MI5 playing mind games with the populace. Maybe thats the area that Muslim protesters should be broadcasting loud and clear to western people.

airlineguy1980

Shard I am not saying the reaction is wrong. but we shouldnt let the attacker succeed or the terrorist. There should be outpour of solidarity.

Trust me as I said your friend WHO is not from your race should defend you more than you defend yourself if you are subjected to racisim. Thats the type of medicine will kill terrorism.

I dont need to declare jihad on you if you dont believe in god(infidel another name calling) this is from the non muslim media.

The best way to honour the soldier is to defeat the aim of the terrorist which cant be done by MI5 OR CIA OR GOVT. That will be done in your mind and mine and million others. There are misleading schools run by certain religious groups to feed this even though they are legal they are promoting intolerance in the name of defending their rights.

you cant win this war with guns these are ideology where people WHO are not educated.Trust me I had one cousin in my own family. we were so scared that he will be prosecuted finally shipped him to saudi arabia where his idea can be tolerated. for him music is bad lol see how much they can be brain washed his parents are powerless as he holding religion against them to defend his action.

airlineguy1980

There is no protest happening from muslims. "muslim protestor" I have yet to find one. issuing statement we condone this barbaric act and go back to mosque to pray to god is not the right response. only a few individuals fighting with no support there is no chance.

look at this forum there are hundred of guys WHO are muslims but none will post a single thing to challenge the very same act which we are discussing. either they busy making Money or they just dont care. or they believe çivil liberty should be fought by westerners and I will just enjoy it.

My general feel from muslim community is trying to run away from the problem. We stay out of this and we will be safe or They are reaping what the westerners sow attitude. but soon they fail to realise it gona turn the table on them and their families.

With immigration and people with less tolerance moving for economic reason alone going to cause more problem. I still like to hear some comments from muslims. No reaction from muslim leaders except a few that too weak.

Shard

We can know (about the non existence of god) before time ends. That is the whole point, it is foolish to live life under a delusion. We now know enough scientifically and intellectually where we can move on from living in tribes according to myths.

To be honesty, it is the moderates of all religions have a problem with. The extremists are truly delusional and can be said to be suffering a mental problem. But the moderates are self-deluding and suffering from intellectual laziness.

None of this would be that important if people were peaceful, but they are not. I agree with much of your criticism of Western policy and how ineffective it will be. It leads to the conclusion that only by dismantling religion will these problems be solved. Man created religion. Christianity and Islam were written up 5000 years after the Egyptians were building pyramids and worshiping the sun. Why are these myths so enduring and so divisive? It's because of the vast number of otherwise intelligent people who choose to follow. Who suppress their power of reason to believe in what-if's.

I am pleased you respect my opinion of no god. I would also ask that you respect my opinion of no fairies. And my opinion of no unicorns.

With All Due Respect...

I was thinking in terms of the wider context of the conflicts that have had much to do with feeding the hatred that this extremism feeds on. I didn't serve alongside even one person that I knew who thought going back to Iraq wasn't a highly questionable decision, free of legal or moral issues. You can't just call the union and go on strike though. Orders are not up for debate (with the exception of one Corps in particular, as the saying goes), and unless given an illegal order to commit an atrocity at your direct level then I doubt virtually any serving member of HM Forces would disobey. Whether to have the forces sent overseas on operations in the first place, and what the framework of those ops are, is where serving members have to put their trust in their heirarchy - and politicians especially - that they are not having their trust abused. You're there to do a job, wherever you may be sent. You don't choose to be sent there (generally). You can't pick and choose which bits of policy you agree with and therefore pick and choose your participation within the current scope of operations. All you can do is keep your moral compass yourself and hope those above you keep to their end of the bargain of using you wisely and fairly.

airlineguy1980

shard. ok no unicorns too

I even thought about it the way the holy books define prophets and son of god theory to such an extent that if some one dont believe that you cant be considered as a good with that faith.

But My belief of god dont step on anybody toes. I dont preach or brainwash anyone thats only like little personal space inside me. I even liked this program mundane debate about religion by tony blair and another atheist. actually I liked the idea of the aethiest. He asked why you need a heaven to do the right thing. which striked a cord in me.

But then I decided as long as i dont claim special rights or priviledges based on religion and keep it at personal space inside me. I just let it be there.


Regarding to other comment on soldiers doing the job. You trust in a general but he is appointed by politician. In every case very rarely you will find a gem among powerful people(general, politician bankers). soldiers are there by choice you know the problems but still prepare to serve under them by enlisting there. ask for a contract where by you can refuse to do the job when crimes are committed right infront of you. if they dont give one dont serve or sign up so it saves you getting face martial law. To be fair to you everybody have to eat and feed too so cant follow the noble way and die of hunger. but ifthere is a choice he could go for alternative career if possible until the govt change the rules by seeing drop in army personnel. People make the politician by revolution or evolution to enact laws which will serve them. but then they will increase the pay and lure the people into the army anyway. so the success of the revolution to happen is people not be greedy.

With All Due Respect...

FWIW, within the definition of the term terrorism, this was a terrorist act. The face of terrorism may be evolving, and these guys may well just be thugs, but it was a terrorist act nonetheless.

People question MI5 but the game has changed. If you want MI5 and MI6 to be better then you have to fund them better. It seems there's endless funding for QUANGO's and public enquiries over every little thing that goes wrong in the public eye, but the funding for more watchers isn't there? Oversight of the spooks is a different question entirely, but the public needs to trust and support their security services. With the pervasive flow of information, the internet, and journalism in this modern age then the security services simply can't act with impunity like some seem to consider they do. They don't. But by the very nature of their roles they cannot be fully transparent.

The accountability of our politicians, forces, and security services is altogether different from the accountability of the terrorists. They have none. There are no easy answers to any of the questions that are posed by this extremism. Making sure we send our forces to places for the right reasons in the first place, funding 5 and 6 appropriately, curtailing hate preachers, and having accountability is a good start though. Terrorism will never achieve its aim if the public support, believe and trust in the institutions and organisations that act on their behalf.

keel

This has been very sad news to hear that Fusilier Rigby had been murdered in such a brutal manner.

He was from my own regiment the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers. This is the second Fusilier to be murdered by "British Muslims" in the last couple of years with the other happening in Cyprus in a night club.

It might have passed over our politian's heads but I think the groundswell of public anger is not just directed at this murder but the rot of the country through the inaction of the political class that rule the UK.

It's no good MI5 tracking potential terrorist if they are then not allowed to arrest the suspects because they don't have enough evidence for a conviction. In my opinion the only solution is to introduce internment to keep them off the streets. This would only be a stopgap measure in my view as the only answer to the problem is to deport the entire Muslim population.

The time for half measures must come to an end. Every night on the news we see pictures of violence stemming from the Muslim faith. The Christian/western societies can not live alongside a completely different culture.

I know what the replies will be "not all Muslims are terrorists " etc. and I know this is very true but what I'm saying is the 2 cultures are incompatible and I doubt there will ever be peace between the 2 groups.

The longer the politian's put this off the worse it will get for everyone.

Keel

With All Due Respect...

Yes, the forces are filled by enlistment and not conscription, so there is a choice initially of even serving. It would be impossible to have an effective military though if following orders were optional. If crimes are committed in front of you then you could refuse to soldier right now as things stand. Context is important here though in assessing what a crime is... Your loyalty is to your peers and that camaraderie is stronger than of that loyalty even to your government or the Queen. You don't let your colleagues, peers and friends down. If you're already overseas in a place on operations that has questionable legal standing then you just get on with it. You don't refuse to soldier and break the morale, strength and effectiveness of your colleagues. That's not the same as turning a blind eye to atrocities though! The idea that the forces are out overseas all incessantly doing the same as what these two thugs did is just wrong though. There is restraint and there is a plan, it's not just thousands of psychos in uniform. Whether we should be there or not is not a question that a member of the forces can let interfere with fulfilling their role, nor should it be. That is where it's up to the politicians to choose carefully which situations they throw HM Forces into.

And don't worry, the government's doing a wonderful job of dropping the numbers of personnel all by themselves!

I think this is heading off topic, so I'll probably bow out.

Shard

You are somewhat open-minded for a religious person. The guy you refer to in discussion with Tony Blair is Christopher Hitchens (recently dead). I encourage you to listen to more of his speeches and think more about what religion means.

Out of curiosity, as a moderate Muslim (currently, there is hope for you) what does your moderate faith say will happen to infidels at death. In Christian faith we are going to Hell, but can be "saved" and indeed should be saved (by Christians). How are moderates instructed to treat infidels?

airlineguy1980

You want my opinion. I keep god to me. I do think Jesus or Mohammed are prophets but I don't think they carry the same weight in my eyes as there are so many unresolved questions but what I can say is there is some thing wrong some where.

For me religion like you said is faith for the soul real god or not. Lets say you did all your life good but you don't believe in unicorns according to the teachings it says you go to hell. But I disagree how could I share a heaven with a thug who just prayed to god and did so many wrongs in life. If such a place exist then it should be for good people.

I don't think I call myself mildly Islamist like the media Says.My religious freedom was always protected by my friends. I never say I don't eat pork even it lies in my plate I carefully miss that eat the rest rather than refusing it and make a division and its always my friends who are will notice it and change the venue to accommodate me even though I didn't ask for it.

The reason I was different than you thought is I came from the street. When I stand in the street with no money for college I ran everywhere every religion ask my pledge first in return for the help. That's when I came across those lunatic behavior people. I was desperate but you can say I had some luck I know the teachings are breaking the logic. I do pray when I can just like doing a yoga. I was alone most of my life due to my family situation. The law enforcement can't even go near them as they are careful until you reach the point of threshold I did probe how deep the rabbit hole is. Even they got home services visited by very old people but with no logic. I once even challenged the guy if he hate the country so much why don't he go back to his native country.

But he try to evade it. He couldn't convince me but he convinced my entire family. So I have been pariah. There was no help are what so ever even for a guy with reasonable success. It some times hurt to fight alone with this ideologies. One of the side you try to include but the very same side gona hate me because they are suspicious. I work in an airport everyday I pass thru the same guy in security I can see in his eyes. It happens in every airport I will be singled out, but I try to live with it as some ones life worth more than the stuff I got to go thru everyday.

For me there are two kinda of people good and bad. If you do good if heaven exist en you go there. There shouldn't be salvation just because you are believer. If that's the case why the law we have in this world is so unforgiving.

airlineguy1980

wow not compatible cultures. how about protestants and catholics are they compatible? atheist and christians are they compatible?then why a norwegian guy commited terrorist act then. let me guess thats one off incident. thank goodness you are not gona deport British citizen because of their faith. To be honest lot of British muslims are there because of the colonial past. i think if your fore fathers stayed in the same island. may be you could have got less muslims on your ranks. too bad they commited lot more shit in Pakistan and india and china stripped the country's wealth to bare minimum along with you end up with people you think not compatible. if you had the power like in previous centuries we all could have been saved of this incomaptible situation they dont know where UK is. do they?

My goodness.anyway You said your point.dont worry I had two fantastic years in london loved the curry which was infact taste better than in asia. may be the military guys need to be preached less about honor and duty and serve the country and more about human rights. No wonder in US carrying a gun is a basic right because the founders knew goverment are corrupt. 5 and 6 and 7 dont need to exist. WHO created the palestine borders you want to know and half of the border problems in World is as result of colonial past. thats how you end up with incomaptible culture in your plate keel. I even had a nice smile in my time when my British buddy said this tikka masala is British that why it taste less spicy. I dont want to argue and broke his heart as he embrace it as his own and he likes the food.

Honestly may be if you had the power deport them back home to where ever they came from actually whereever their ancestors from then you should be in ethiopia as the genome Project proved scientifically first man was born in africa. wallah I am jumping on my ship to africa

airlineguy1980

actually what ever christian faith says pretty much it same in muslims too 70% (keel might think not compatible and give 0). but some added caveats of polygamy and some male dominant factor(some christian groups tend to have the later too)

The real teaching about islam is you are not suppose to preach even. you got to live a humble and happier life where by if some one ask about it then you explain until to the point of his question.(Yeah I agree now the preaching does go on like soap ad). The best part is now the muslims even learn how to use the media like qatar foundation creating a better life. my good ness sake may be the foundation first have to make qatar better place before they go anywhere else.

KEEL my condolenses for your mate. but the stand you are making dont honor your regiment colleague. but i wish like you said if people everyone stay in their own cultures will create less problem for you over there to be done soon. then you will realise the power politics. then why did france jump into Libya those incompatible came grazing folks are right there where they should be in "desert". but you see the french do bomb that place so their compatible place is destroyed my friend then if people run away to italy and reach france. then the french people gona deport them back to a village rained on bomb. yes the dictator killed people WHO dont bow to him. now the people dont know WHO to bow to so that they dont get killed.

airlineguy1980

shard thanks for the info on the guy. i try to find more about his view.seems to süit my logic and infact answered most of my question. i still like to have my unicorn as long as its White and pretty no blood on the horns

airlineguy1980

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMraxhd9Z9Q keel watch this you will understand multicultural

atleast there is one muslim country where christopher and his muslim debater seem to agree on. thats where my OH is from. actually the debate is 2010. now in 2012 one of christopher concern kurdish identity too is solved