scrubbedexpat098

I really don't think that these people are men of violence in their normal lives, if we were to upsticks and leave the middle east the violence stops, it's really that simple. This jehad thing is only happening cos we're where we're not wanted. However, the 'friendlies' are gonna be equally pissed at us if we do leave them in the shit. Should've left well alone IMO. Seen loads of opinions on this and I really don't know what to think for the best, but I do think we're reeping the rewards of years of f;awed foreign policy. Just watched a film called four lions, a comedy about , wait for it...suicide bombers of all things, I reckon it's probably closer to the truth than anything in the media. It's also ball achingly funny

I posted a pic before that said 'if you think your religion is worth killing for, start with yourself' if only every religious nut did just that

ozzieeagle

Great film that, how they could take a subject like suicide bombing and turn it into a comedy is quite amazing... Still one of the funniest films I've seen in a few years. I wouldnt be at all surprised if a lot of it were based on peoples observations.

scrubbedexpat098

I agree, Chris Morris is a bit of a legend though, he makes me laugh and feel wrong for doing it at the same time

januarymix

I would not be 100% on that.

As far as my (very) limited understanding goes, there are extremist elements in Islam that are quite antagonistic and it has nothing to do whether "we" are in their (geographical) lands or not. Of course now that the West is seen to be visibly meddling, it exacerbates already volatile dynamics.

However, I just do not believe it is as simple as you say above.

scrubbedexpat098

but you do agree that if we weren't meddling, our shores wouldn't be seeing these attacks? Perhaps it's not as simple now, but if we'd not meddled in the first place they could've been as extremist as they liked and no harm done (to the west of course)

cresta57

We've been meddling since the bloody Norman conquest, well just a few years later, that's 8 crusades and a thousand years worth of meddling. No wonder they're pissed off

scrubbedexpat098

yep, think I would be too, what's done in the name of religion has alot to answer for. anyways I'm gonna convert the bloke in the donga opposite cos he's got a beard and he don't talk like wot I do

cresta57

When I worked onsite on a big job in the U.K smoko's were staggered so everyone could fit in the tea hut. Somehow my gang got stuck with a gang that were all Jehovah's Witness. All was well for the first week then they wanted us to pray with them etc & were really funny about it when we refused.
My labourer sorted the problem, after nipping to the local newsagents for a handful of harcore porn magazines he proceeded to ask their opinion on the various shots in the centrefold pages.
They stopped using the tea hut after that.

januarymix

I know what you mean, I am just not entirely sure (and none of us can be since history developed along the path that we are now seeing).

What I am aware of is that there are some real extremes in Islam -- e.g. I read a while ago that one Government wanted to ban women from wearing skirts so that they would not incite sexual passions within men -- and that the populations of Muslims is very high.

Therefore, if the in-power governments are, for example, fundamentalist regimes who decide to also destroy outside bad influences (e.g. the West are seen as having very many opposing values of the Islamist countries), then it could be actually very messy.

I believe (but again I am not an expert and pick this up from various news sources over the years) that some Western governments, and America in particular perhaps, try to influence the tides so that some regimes don't dominate a tide war, so to speak.

Personally, I don't think there is anything wrong with country strategies, politics and the necessary manouvering within that. But over recent years, it has maybe become a problem when for example it appears that the US, UK etc went to war with illegitimate reasons, causing the death and destruction of thousands, ripping homelands etc. and lining the already very deep pockets of politicians like Dick Cheney etc. (the so called hawks of the US Government) with money, and contracts borne out of a war they started.

No matter what criticism Obama comes under, at least he has seemed to be less hawkish and war ridden than some of his US counterparts. Therefore, at least the world can have a little sigh on the gung-ho US front.

So my long post is meant to say, yes and no. But recent years, yes we, I think, have taken some actions which has incited a lot more hatred towards the West.

As you might see, the wars in Afghanistan, Iraq etc are highly visible and I believe there is a concept of brotherhood within the Muslim world (fair enough) such that the perceived attack on their brothers is an attack of all them. i.e. The recruitment for Jihadists might then be an easier job for terrorist elements that might not have had the opportunity in the past.

Anyway I definitely think it is complex.

Shard

It most definitely complex, but generally you are right. Islamists (the devout muslims) are instructed by the Koran to only respect other muslims, and to treat women of all stripes in what we would consider a second class fashion. Even without a war they would seek to expand their faith and ruin (or in their eyes "redeem") other countries and societies. Iran is case in point.

Gordon Barlow

I was brought up a Christian, and taught by the church that persons of other religions (who pretty much by definition had rejected Christ) were worthless and would go straight to Hell. My teachers assured me that Jesus said that in the Bible.

In our youth, my wife-to-be and I backpacked throughout the Middle East. Except for occasional bottom-pinchings that were no worse than she had encountered in Italy, she was never treated with anything less than respect. I have blogged about our travels, and I present those reminiscences as evidence. Anti-Islam prejudice is based on a false premise.

Shard, your version of history is woeful. Iran has been a peaceful country for centuries, Western provocation notwithstanding. To say that it is seeking to ruin other countries and societies is so incorrect I have to presume you have an ulterior motive for saying it. If you are a spokesman for either the Israeli or the US government, both of which are controlled by warmongers who are fanatically keen to destroy Iran, please say so and let's know where you stand.

Shard

My point about Iran was that it was a thriving Middle Eastern country until about thirty years ago when the Islamic Revolution sent it backward by about 200 years. I did not comment on it having any military ambitions (and certainly don't believe it that to be the case) so your rash conclusions are the only thing woeful in this discussion.

To say that anti-Islam prejudice is based on false premise is to accept that women should be treated as chattels, and that violence or death can be uses to prevent muslims leaving the faith. Great atrocities happen on a daily basis due to this misguided religion. Christianity was equally culpable 500 years ago, though that does not make Islam any more tolerable. Both religions should be dismantled, the more dangerous and oppressive of the two first.

Pollyana

Just remember that not all Christians were brought up to believe that.
My dad was a C of E vicar, and he would never have taught me that followers of other paths were worthless. Even when I started studying astrology, wicca and othe such subjects he never condemned me as worthless. Misguided and needing help maybe, but never worthless. He understood there were other paths, and that there was no way we would ever all think the same way.

Bernieboy

I still think yer a nutter !!!!!

Pollyana

My dad was a Clerk in Holy Orders surely with that background i can't be a nutter