geoff52

While It’s true that throughout life we make connections personal or business.
What I find nauseous is people coming onto public forums and boasting how these connections where used to make money and business deals. This self-aggrandisement and belittling other posters is so unnecessary and the rest of us frankly don’t care.
Boast about yourself to your friends and family not on BE.

Beoz

You could have the decency to reply with quotes.

Post #20. Tennis asks whether its worth paying for. Its a good question. Why blow $25k+ a year without seeing return on that investment.

As I have first hand knowledge of the system (during and afters) its worth sharing a story to evaluate that question. Private schools aren't for everyone. Not everyone will see a return. Its very much down to the individual. And to be completely honest, for education alone, it's not worth it in my opinion - but you should never do a private school for the education alone.

If you want to take that as boasting that's your problem to deal with. Don't let the resentment stick hit you on the arse on the way out the door.

Beoz

Tennis - I can't reply to your post from the split thread with quotes for whatever reason and the reply seems to end up in here. Splitting threads done damage to BE.

Anyhow, you asked about viewing education in pecuniary terms. Well in post #20 in the original thread, you ask if a private education is worth $25k per year, so you must have the focus on money.

But money does allow of an easy way of breaking down the ROI. The rest are grey and subjective. If you joined the school ski team you might think it wasn't worth the money as all those ski trips are going you (later in life) and your parents lots of $$$ - and where's the return on that?

moneypenny20

The cocked up posting on split threads is something Tech is working on. It's not happening all the time so it's a pain in the arse.

BEVS

Agree. It is right annoying.

Sometimes it helps to log out , clear the cache and log back in. *sigh*

Sometimes it can be overcome by making the post using quick reply .

OzTennis

The original question and why this arose is how a parent would decide whether to send their child/children to state or private school and if the latter whether it was worth the (say) $25K p.a. outlay.

As I said your responses have mainly been concerned with pecuniary interests which isn't surprising since you are a product of the system.

What I would have expected a parent to ask, when choosing between state or private system, is questions such as, in no intended order:

* The curriculum - range of subjects offered. Obviously a private school will offer some subjects which state schools don't (and vice-versa). Do they offer International Baccalaureate for example (if child might consider studying later overseas).

* Quality of teaching - you don't pick that up from results. Private schools of course don't have the full range of abilities and the behavioural spectrum like most state schools have. You would expect private schools to top league tables of exam results. What is important and what is extremely difficult to measure is what value is added for want of a better term in the 2 types of schools.

* Quality of facilities - fabric of the buildings, laboratories, teaching aids, library, recreational areas, sporting facilities etc, etc.

* School ethos and values imparted - thorny one but important.

* Pastoral care/guidance/careers advice.

* After school clubs and activities, awards schemes (e.g. Duke of Edinburgh awards in UK context), sports and teams available.

* School excursions, trips etc.

ETC, ETC ............

* Oh and as an after thought what old school boy/girl network advantages are there.

GarryP

If you really want connections you can use, surely the right university is going to be of more use that the right school? Not only are your compatriots going to be closer to employment (and therefore usefulness), but they are also more likely to be peers in a compatible field. So don't waste $25k per year on schooling, put it away for a top notch university (and if you don't think you can buy your way in, Trump is a graduate....)

But ahh, you say. How are you going to get into a top notch university if you don't have great schooling? Well, here's the thing - most teachers are crap. That's not surprising, anyone that's good gets a decent job, away from screaming kids. And there is little chance that a doofus doing a chalk and talk (or even an interactive whiteboard and talk) will be at the same level as a professional presenter and a bunch of CGI graphics, linked up to personalised lessons and an AI. So make sure that you kid learns from the best via cheap online tuition, and school is kept for socialisation.

OzTennis

I presume you are trying to be ironic and tongue in cheek with that post?

Universities mostly work on entrance scores; you don't just 'pick' a top notch university and then spend your dosh.

Exaggerated, ill informed and patronising cr*p about 'most teachers'. So called 'professional presenters' are usually not teacher trained and despite having all the latest technology can't structure and deliver a seminar or whatever which is usually to a captive, motivated audience (rather than an audience which often doesn't wish to be there or has a hangover or drugover or is more interested in their mobile phone which has an invisible umbilical cord to their eyes).

'Learning from online' is one tool but do you really wish your child to be even more isolated than they are becoming now thanks to 'technology'? School for learning and socialisation.

Beoz

That's what I said. Why are you repeating what I said? And its the reason why you got your answer in terms of money.

Now now. No need to bring a resentful nastiness to the conversation. I think at the end of the day, we may see eye to eye on many ideas around this topic.

Well I have to say my lavatories we not great. Hardly a priority.

But yes agree. Education is definately more than measuring results. It would be good to have a measuring guide of where students were 5, 10, 20 years after school.

Didn't you just say socialising was important? Kind of helps with that networking right?

carcajou

But ahh, you say. How are you going to get into a top notch university if you don't have great schooling? Well, here's the thing - most teachers are crap. That's not surprising, anyone that's good gets a decent job, away from screaming kids. And there is little chance that a doofus doing a chalk and talk (or even an interactive whiteboard and talk) will be at the same level as a professional presenter and a bunch of CGI graphics, linked up to personalised lessons and an AI. So make sure that you kid learns from the best via cheap online tuition, and school is kept for socialisation.[/QUOTE]


Garryp, what to you qualifies as a decent job? Teachers at the top of the payscale (which comes after about 8-9 years of experience) are in the top 20% of all income earners in Australia - and they are virtually all university educated, many (if not most) with some kind of graduate education. That does not scream to me "doofus doing a chalk and talk" who can't find a "decent job."

Beoz, your comment about tracking students for decades after they leave as a measure of school quality, I have been arguing for that for years but it is extremely difficult to generate any interest in it from the education system (not necessarily individual schools). At the very least it would provide valuable qualitative data on what successful school leavers felt they achieved/did not achieve in school, and unsuccessful leavers on what they wished they had reflecting back.

OzTennis

Why I'm repeating is that you view the initial question in too narrow terms as I tried to explain what should be involved in choice of education. It's not like spending $25K on a widget or investing it in a particular asset; to pinch what Bill Shankly said it's not a matter of life and death, education is more important than that.

We sort of see eye to eye; don't judge education purely in terms of what's in for me later on but what it gives you now, what stays with you and so on.

I'd guess you have to avoid the lavatories and 'dorms' in a lot of private schools.

I'm looking at socialising in it's broadest terms of course - not social media, contacts for business - but developing friendships, learning to respect others and not just think of number 1.

You've got it completely wrong. I'm not the 'left' anyway, I'm me, centre of the road and I'm not resentful at all; if anything it's pity for the way some others look at issues and pride in the values instilled in me by my parents, my environment and my schools and Universities.

xizzles

Good grief - I'm pretty certain we (Beoz, OzTennis, Garryp et. al) are all grown men on the wrong side of 40 (or 50 as it may be the case for some, sigh) - with carcajou being a touch undercooked amongst the boys here, I seem to remember him mentioning he's a tad on the (damn it) right side of 40.

And we're still arguing over school like... school lads

Amazulu

It's pretty rare but I largely agree with you on this. Some teachers are pretty useless but the majority do a good job. Online learning has its place but nothing can replace the interaction between students and a decent teacher. I could have done nearly all of my recently completed MBA online but I chose instead to do all of it face to face as I felt that I would learn more this way - and I was right. For some of my fellow students studying was all about getting a piece of paper and nothing else, but I actually wanted to learn new things - and learn I did. As for school - it is much more than academics. You get social skills, confidence, a sense of belonging and being part of a team from going to school - much of which you really won't get online

I'm sure some people get into top universities because of money, influence and contacts but most don't. Outfits like MIT and Cambridge don't get to their level of excellence without entrance being largely based on merit. That may have been the way in the past (actually it probably was) but not really today. Who's to say that Trump didn't deserve his place at Wharton?

Garry's obvious lack of social skills and his sense of superiority make sense when you see them in the light of his attitude to group education and interaction - people who live their lives via the keyboard can tend to be this way

scot47

School ? Bash Street, Grange Hill, Eton or Gordonstoun. All the same.

GarryP

In part yes, but with a degree of reality.

Firstly, you can buy your way in to universities. Practically they are looking out for cold hard cash, and provided they can fudge grades which aren't too bad, they will let you in. As I say, why do you think Trump is in theory degree 'educated'? If you are throwing money around, it's probably best to throw it at this stage - even if its only coaching to get through the selection criteria. Better networking from this stage, and where the degree is from matters.

As for the perennial 'teachers are geniuses' - the evidence is against you. In reality most people, and particularly most really top flight people don't want to be teachers (they don't mind so much being lecturers though). That's the reality. In addition trying to drum new concepts into 30 kids heads is a difficult task, and what they have to do it with is not appreciably different to the Victorian era. If you can get to the one-on-one tuition type element etc. then they might have something to add, but for the basic drumming in, they aren't as good as someone who is top flight at explaining things, backed up by the right images and simulations, and able to be personalised and go at the appropriate speed.

When you look at the concept of the 'flipped classroom', you find that swapping the homework into the schoolroom and the 'drumming in' into a video at home utilises the time better, and relies on video - so I'm just taking it a bit further.

Which is why an interactive, video based solution is actually better...

School is probably better for socialisation, group tasks, and getting support when you can't get something. It sucks for one-on-one personalised learning.