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Old Jun 5th 2017, 4:06 am   #91
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Default Re: Manchester

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Originally Posted by cresta57 View Post
At the height of the IRA bombing campaign we didn't send all the Irish home to Ireland. It was talked about but there would have been nobody left to dig the holes. I guess in this instance there would be a lack of shopkeepers and taxi drivers.....
I'm thinking that the immediate question is, if the authorities have been 'tipped off' that person X is unstable and potentially an issue, what do they do about it?
  • You can't cart them off to jail (and it would be counterproductive).
  • You can't keep them under surveillance 24/7 (don't have the manpower).
  • You can't tag them (again, counterproductive)
  • You can't ignore it (because if they do attack people...)
Seems like an answer to that problem is the urgent one. We don't want it to become like May's wet dream of a totalitarian surveillance state, but we do need attention to be paid with an OODA loop shorter than the speed they could act within.


And we probably need politicians watched with at least the that level of attention as a terrorist, for roughly similar reasons.
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Old Jun 5th 2017, 4:19 am   #92
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Default Re: Manchester

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Originally Posted by GarryP View Post
I'm thinking that the immediate question is, if the authorities have been 'tipped off' that person X is unstable and potentially an issue, what do they do about it?
  • You can't cart them off to jail (and it would be counterproductive).
  • You can't keep them under surveillance 24/7 (don't have the manpower).
  • You can't tag them (again, counterproductive)
  • You can't ignore it (because if they do attack people...)
Seems like an answer to that problem is the urgent one. We don't want it to become like May's wet dream of a totalitarian surveillance state, but we do need attention to be paid with an OODA loop shorter than the speed they could act within.


And we probably need politicians watched with at least the that level of attention as a terrorist, for roughly similar reasons.

They need to do something pretty bloody quick, and it should probably take the form of internment of suspects, or deportation of suspects. This is where years of 'carry on as usual', and 'it's not all Muslims' and ignoring the problem has got us. We've let a molehill become mountain, it's our own fault.
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Old Jun 5th 2017, 4:41 am   #93
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Default Re: Manchester

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Originally Posted by stevenglish1 View Post
They need to do something pretty bloody quick, and it should probably take the form of internment of suspects, or deportation of suspects. This is where years of 'carry on as usual', and 'it's not all Muslims' and ignoring the problem has got us. We've let a molehill become mountain, it's our own fault.
Totally agree. The current situation is the accumulation of decades of PC'ness, failed multiculturalism, timidity and complacency - from the population and all sides of politics. More should have been demanded from the 3rd world immigrants coming into the west but it wasn't. It's a mess. Saying that, it's better that this is happening when the muslim population of the west is at 5% and not 25% and more that it will be in a few generations. Then it would be impossible and subjugation and islamification would be inevitable. At the moment it is not inevitable and the west has the chance to sort this out and win - and win they will, but it won't be pretty
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Old Jun 5th 2017, 5:07 am   #94
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Default Re: Manchester

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Originally Posted by stevenglish1 View Post
... it should probably take the form of internment of suspects, or deportation of suspects.
How to make things 10 times worse in 5 seconds.

Internment would be a great way to make many more terrorists, and give them much more support, as it did in Ireland.
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Old Jun 5th 2017, 5:34 am   #95
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Default Re: Manchester

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Originally Posted by GarryP View Post
How to make things 10 times worse in 5 seconds.

Internment would be a great way to make many more terrorists, and give them much more support, as it did in Ireland.
Deportation it is then

The thing is Garry, we all know where this hate speech leads, so the preachers at the very least need isolating from the people they radicalize. It doesn't matter how tolerant you are, this death cult needs obliterating.
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Old Jun 5th 2017, 5:50 am   #96
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Default Re: Manchester

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Originally Posted by stevenglish1 View Post
Deportation it is then
What if they were 1st or 2nd generation?

The koran needs a re-write in the context of the 20th century and the west.

Something governments can demand and over see and something Islamic leaders should be kicking down the door to do.
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Old Jun 5th 2017, 6:05 am   #97
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Default Re: Manchester

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What if they were 1st or 2nd generation?

The koran needs a re-write in the context of the 20th century and the west.

Something governments can demand and over see and something Islamic leaders should be kicking down the door to do.
1st, 2nd 3rd, whatever they are, piss em off and cancel their passports. They won't be stateless, they'll have their beloved Islamic state
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Old Jun 5th 2017, 6:43 am   #98
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Default Re: Manchester

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Originally Posted by stevenglish1 View Post
1st, 2nd 3rd, whatever they are, piss em off and cancel their passports. They won't be stateless, they'll have their beloved Islamic state
A bit drastic but I see where you're coming from - any solution is going to involve a few assholes losing some of their civil liberties

Bring it on
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Old Jun 5th 2017, 6:57 am   #99
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Default Re: Manchester

Quote:
Originally Posted by GarryP View Post
I'm thinking that the immediate question is, if the authorities have been 'tipped off' that person X is unstable and potentially an issue, what do they do about it?
  • You can't cart them off to jail (and it would be counterproductive).
  • You can't keep them under surveillance 24/7 (don't have the manpower).
  • You can't tag them (again, counterproductive)
  • You can't ignore it (because if they do attack people...)
Seems like an answer to that problem is the urgent one. We don't want it to become like May's wet dream of a totalitarian surveillance state, but we do need attention to be paid with an OODA loop shorter than the speed they could act within.


And we probably need politicians watched with at least the that level of attention as a terrorist, for roughly similar reasons.
It is a challenging situation but more needs to be done. Instead of "we cant do more surveillance because of current manpower levels", increase the manpower levels. Close down any Mosque preaching hate. Hire more people to shut down radical Islamic web sites. Increase police presence. Deportations wherever possible of those who incite violence. Restrict the validity of British passports for travel without pre-authorization to certain countries.
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Old Jun 5th 2017, 7:10 am   #100
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Default Re: Manchester

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A bit drastic but I see where you're coming from - any solution is going to involve a few assholes losing some of their civil liberties

Bring it on
I reckon there'll be some tough stuff going on, even if just to satisfy the public. They'll start taking to the streets if there's a couple more of these incidents.
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Old Jun 5th 2017, 7:24 am   #101
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Default Re: Manchester

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I reckon there'll be some tough stuff going on, even if just to satisfy the public. They'll start taking to the streets if there's a couple more of these incidents.
It will take a lot for there to be mass demonstrations in favor of tougher measures against the Islamic extremists. Even if there were ten times the number if terror attacks, there will be those against tougher measures for their own ideological reasons. Who would have thought crazy Jihadists stabbing people on the street wouldn't be enough to show extent of the problem ad for public to be more demanding of stronger measures ?
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Old Jun 5th 2017, 8:21 am   #102
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Default Re: Manchester

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Originally Posted by morpeth View Post
It will take a lot for there to be mass demonstrations in favor of tougher measures against the Islamic extremists. Even if there were ten times the number if terror attacks, there will be those against tougher measures for their own ideological reasons. Who would have thought crazy Jihadists stabbing people on the street wouldn't be enough to show extent of the problem ad for public to be more demanding of stronger measures ?
It's very sad, it's like Stockholm syndrome
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Old Jun 5th 2017, 8:41 am   #103
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Default Re: Manchester

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Originally Posted by morpeth View Post
It will take a lot for there to be mass demonstrations in favor of tougher measures against the Islamic extremists. Even if there were ten times the number if terror attacks, there will be those against tougher measures for their own ideological reasons. Who would have thought crazy Jihadists stabbing people on the street wouldn't be enough to show extent of the problem ad for public to be more demanding of stronger measures ?
'Who would have thought' that Theresa May as Home Secretary would have presided over the reduction in the number of police by 20,000 whilst now pronouncing 'enough is enough' and that we'll do all we can to tackle extremism?

I'm not sure what you base your claim that people aren't outraged by what's happened and that there isn't consensus that more needs to be done. What is at issue is why is it happening and what CAN be done to prevent it?

The Asst Commissioner of the Met said we are now in a situation whereby terrorism is 'low tech' (e.g. hire a van and mow people down randomly) and by nature impossible to detect and prevent. Let's have a real commitment to funding increased security and policing for a kick off. Increase sentences by all means but will this deter extremists prepared to die for their twisted cause?

The same Theresa May - Theresa May has left Britain's police demoralised and angry. Now we just don't trust her
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Old Jun 5th 2017, 9:10 am   #104
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Default Re: Manchester

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Originally Posted by OzTennis View Post
'Who would have thought' that Theresa May as Home Secretary would have presided over the reduction in the number of police by 20,000 whilst now pronouncing 'enough is enough' and that we'll do all we can to tackle extremism?

I'm not sure what you base your claim that people aren't outraged by what's happened and that there isn't consensus that more needs to be done. What is at issue is why is it happening and what CAN be done to prevent it?

The Asst Commissioner of the Met said we are now in a situation whereby terrorism is 'low tech' (e.g. hire a van and mow people down randomly) and by nature impossible to detect and prevent. Let's have a real commitment to funding increased security and policing for a kick off. Increase sentences by all means but will this deter extremists prepared to die for their twisted cause?

The same Theresa May - Theresa May has left Britain's police demoralised and angry. Now we just don't trust her
20k unarmed bobbies mean f**k all in the context of 2017. 20k bobbies all armed with Glock 17's are a different story, but alas, because of people like you wanting to live in fantasyland, it'll never happen
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Old Jun 5th 2017, 9:52 am   #105
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Default Re: Manchester

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Originally Posted by morpeth View Post
It is a challenging situation but more needs to be done. Instead of "we cant do more surveillance because of current manpower levels", increase the manpower levels. Close down any Mosque preaching hate. Hire more people to shut down radical Islamic web sites. Increase police presence. Deportations wherever possible of those who incite violence. Restrict the validity of British passports for travel without pre-authorization to certain countries.
You can't deal with hearts and minds by clamping down, and make no mistake, this is primarily about hearts and minds. The aim of this kind of attack is to provoke hard line attacks on all muslims, so more fall into the terrorist's hands.

And I think they made a mistake by trying to stop people going to fight for ISIS. Better to have them leave the country, make note of it, then don't let them back unless you can use them for propaganda on a very short leech (if they survive at all). Once they have gone, they have committed a crime that allows you more leeway to deal with them.

As for hate preachers, ridicule is more effective than swat teams.

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Originally Posted by stevenglish1 View Post
I reckon there'll be some tough stuff going on, even if just to satisfy the public. They'll start taking to the streets if there's a couple more of these incidents.
The problem is May is looking to exploit it for her own authoritarian agenda - which is a bigger threat than the terrorist could ever be. Doism needs to be avoided, in particular with her involved.
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