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Old May 27th 2017, 10:28 pm   #61
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Default Re: Manchester

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Originally Posted by Amazulu View Post
Nope - those are all in your head. Nuking? Seriously?

The UK military is currently fighting ISIS - so many more airstrikes, SF snipers targetting more ISIS leaders (use them to kill foot soldiers too), use drones tactically etc. Any mosque or school know to be teaching radicalism must be closed immediately. Anyone on the terror watch list or teaching radicalism that can be deported, must be done so immediately - change the law if necessary. As a libertarian, I believe in a tiny government that stays out of our lives as much as possible - so I don't believe that it is in the remit of a government to tell people what they can or cannot wear. So if a woman willingly wants to oppress themselves and wear that hijab shite then that's their issue - not mine or the government's

Something that was drummed into us during training - if you don't know what to do, don't do nothing

You'll be surprised to hear I agree with most of that. I think you'll find most people do.

The freedom of speech issue is a tricky one, however when it comes down to incitement, then that is crossing a line.
Who judges that is a questionable point. If it saves lives, then of course it's worth it.
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Old May 28th 2017, 2:19 am   #62
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Default Re: Manchester

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Originally Posted by morpeth View Post
Schools and Mosques that preach hate and justify use of violence can be shut down for example. Forbid any funding from countries like Saudi Arabia or Iran allowed for any school, Mosque or Islamic "charity" organization.
Well, personally I think there are two different issues there. I'd suggest that ALL religious schools need to be banned from pushing or promoting religions - the only religion in schools should be a short comparative religion class for one term to one year, and mainly focused on helping those indoctrinated at home (thus required for all).

As far as mosques is concerned, I'd suggest you need to deal radicalisation, but such locations are useful in that they put all the bad eggs in one basket and allow you to monitor them (which you need to do). I think you should remove the get out that religions use for preaching hate (and that includes the 'gays will go to hell') - with those responsible being held to account no matter the religion (so you can show impartiality). Make it clear that all religions are inside the bounds of civilised behaviour, no exceptions and I don't care what your book of fairy stories says.

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Hire more computer nerds with the objective of hacking into and doing whatever possible to shut down radical Islamic websites.
Again, they act as honeypots, so monitoring and limiting go hand in hand. I do like the idea of changing the content to make it clear you have your eye on them.

Bear in mind that governments tend to be poor at hacking, and security. Too slow.

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Perhaps if someone determined to be on watch list, passport privileges revoked- or in reverse, if they visit countries with known terrorist camps etc, banned from re-entering country.
Not allowed to do much of that via international treaty (it's questionable if current actions are legal). Frankly if you are at the stage where you have enough evidence to take away a passport, you should be much more closely involved in that individual anyway. Pretty much too late if they are at the travel stage.

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Originally Posted by morpeth View Post
More police, more soldiers, perhaps requiring places that attract crowds to have minimum number of private security guards. More random checkpoints in areas police determine there are potential problems.
Pretty pointless. The attack surface is too wide. Better to keep tabs on the individuals than thinking guards will stop things. If nothing else the queue for the checkpoint is itself a target, or the queues to get out again afterwards (Manchester).

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They perpetrators of the Manchester attacks may be British born but they don't consider themselves British.

All the excuses made for the scum who make such attacks or their sympathizers don't really make sense- I don't see Hindu immigrants as suicide bombers.
Which is why we need to tend toward assimilation and breaking up cultural ghettos than 'multiculturalism'. Particularly where we know that is a problem.

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Anyway it is unacceptable to be back to "business as usual." More needs to be done. Manchester should be a wake-up call. All the clichés on television and media don't change the fact that children were blown up.
'Doism' is one of the big problems, and something to be avoided. The problem is that authoritarians like May use it as an excuse for broad surveillance and privacy violations (as she is already trying on). If anything trying to bolt the stable door because the horse has bolted is exactly the wrong thing to do. Forward planning and niche targeting with multiyear time horizons is about the only way you win.
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Old May 28th 2017, 7:45 am   #63
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Default Re: Manchester

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Originally Posted by morpeth View Post
There are common sense measures that be taken both to try to prevent radicalization and prevent terrorist acts, none of which will completely eliminate the threat from radial Islamic fundamentalists.

Schools and Mosques that preach hate and justify use of violence can be shut down for example. Forbid any funding from countries like Saudi Arabia or Iran allowed for any school, Mosque or Islamic "charity" organization. Hire more computer nerds with the objective of hacking into and doing whatever possible to shut down radical Islamic websites. Perhaps if someone determined to be on watch list, passport privileges revoked- or in reverse, if they visit countries with known terrorist camps etc, banned from re-entering country.

More police, more soldiers, perhaps requiring places that attract crowds to have minimum number of private security guards. More random checkpoints in areas police determine there are potential problems.

They perpetrators of the Manchester attacks may be British born but they don't consider themselves British.

All the excuses made for the scum who make such attacks or their sympathizers don't really make sense- I don't see Hindu immigrants as suicide bombers.

Anyway it is unacceptable to be back to "business as usual." More needs to be done. Manchester should be a wake-up call. All the clichés on television and media don't change the fact that children were blown up.
Yes, we keep on getting the 'hate preachers' should be shut down etc but it didn't apply in this case - the Didsbury iman preached against violence and kicked this guy out of the mosque. I agree about deporting the likes of the hooked cleric but look to other reasons in this and many other cases.

Why don't these people see themselves as British? There-in lies something to investigate further and perhaps to do things differently so they don't feel alienated?

Hindu etc immigrants - is there war in India?

Saudi Arabia? Trump called them all the names under the sun, responsible for 9/11, Obama shouldn't have bowed to the King etc and then he goes and does the biggest arms deal in history, does a grovelling bow etc. I don't see the leader of the western world taking the lead here.

You surely know that no amount of policing and checking will prevent terrorist incidents with the best will in the world? As Nice and Westminster show for example anyone driving a vehicle is a potential suspect.
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Old May 28th 2017, 10:38 am   #64
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Default Re: Manchester

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Originally Posted by GarryP View Post
Well, personally I think there are two different issues there. I'd suggest that ALL religious schools need to be banned from pushing or promoting religions - the only religion in schools should be a short comparative religion class for one term to one year, and mainly focused on helping those indoctrinated at home (thus required for all).

As far as mosques is concerned, I'd suggest you need to deal radicalisation, but such locations are useful in that they put all the bad eggs in one basket and allow you to monitor them (which you need to do). I think you should remove the get out that religions use for preaching hate (and that includes the 'gays will go to hell') - with those responsible being held to account no matter the religion (so you can show impartiality). Make it clear that all religions are inside the bounds of civilised behaviour, no exceptions and I don't care what your book of fairy stories says.



Again, they act as honeypots, so monitoring and limiting go hand in hand. I do like the idea of changing the content to make it clear you have your eye on them.

Bear in mind that governments tend to be poor at hacking, and security. Too slow.



Not allowed to do much of that via international treaty (it's questionable if current actions are legal). Frankly if you are at the stage where you have enough evidence to take away a passport, you should be much more closely involved in that individual anyway. Pretty much too late if they are at the travel stage.



Pretty pointless. The attack surface is too wide. Better to keep tabs on the individuals than thinking guards will stop things. If nothing else the queue for the checkpoint is itself a target, or the queues to get out again afterwards (Manchester).



Which is why we need to tend toward assimilation and breaking up cultural ghettos than 'multiculturalism'. Particularly where we know that is a problem.


'Doism' is one of the big problems, and something to be avoided. The problem is that authoritarians like May use it as an excuse for broad surveillance and privacy violations (as she is already trying on). If anything trying to bolt the stable door because the horse has bolted is exactly the wrong thing to do. Forward planning and niche targeting with multiyear time horizons is about the only way you win.


"As far as mosques is concerned, I'd suggest you need to deal radicalisation, but such locations are useful in that they put all the bad eggs in one basket and allow you to monitor them (which you need to do). I think you should remove the get out that religions use for preaching hate (and that includes the 'gays will go to hell') - with those responsible being held to account no matter the religion (so you can show impartiality). Make it clear that all religions are inside the bounds of civilised behaviour, no exceptions and I don't care what your book of fairy stories says."

-------The issue is not religion, but locations that are used to indoctrinate and promote physical violence.


"Not allowed to do much of that via international treaty (it's questionable if current actions are legal). Frankly if you are at the stage where you have enough evidence to take away a passport, you should be much more closely involved in that individual anyway. Pretty much too late if they are at the travel stage."

---------I am unaware of any international treaty that restricts the British government form the terms and conditions of issuing its own passports- even within the EU each country has its own rules for issuance of passports.


"Pretty pointless. The attack surface is too wide. Better to keep tabs on the individuals than thinking guards will stop things. If nothing else the queue for the checkpoint is itself a target, or the queues to get out again afterwards (Manchester)."

--------------- I agree keeping tabs on individuals a better use of resources, but yes random checkpoints over a wider area certainly would be helpful in some instances.A lot better a bomb goes off at a checkpoint with less people than a lot more in an arena. Just commons sense.
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Old May 28th 2017, 10:48 am   #65
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Default Re: Manchester

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Originally Posted by OzTennis View Post
Yes, we keep on getting the 'hate preachers' should be shut down etc but it didn't apply in this case - the Didsbury iman preached against violence and kicked this guy out of the mosque. I agree about deporting the likes of the hooked cleric but look to other reasons in this and many other cases.

Why don't these people see themselves as British? There-in lies something to investigate further and perhaps to do things differently so they don't feel alienated?

Hindu etc immigrants - is there war in India?

Saudi Arabia? Trump called them all the names under the sun, responsible for 9/11, Obama shouldn't have bowed to the King etc and then he goes and does the biggest arms deal in history, does a grovelling bow etc. I don't see the leader of the western world taking the lead here.

You surely know that no amount of policing and checking will prevent terrorist incidents with the best will in the world? As Nice and Westminster show for example anyone driving a vehicle is a potential suspect.
No amount of extra policing will prevent all or even a majority of terrorist incidents, but even if one incident prevented it is worth it.

My point is that in discussion of integration as part of the problem, other communities such as the Hindus or Sikhs are faced with same issues, and don't go around blowing up people. Maybe they just don't want to be British, I am unsure why that would be difficult to understand.

Great he was kicked out of Mosque, when he was reported, the issue is why the government doesn't have stronger policies to deal with people like this. But permitting funding of Mosques and schools by states like Saudi Arabia or Iran has to stop. And any Imam calling for violent acts or supporting radicalization, should be given a one way ticket back to where they came from.

Just accepting the situation isn't acceptable. All the clichés on British television in the aftermath of Manchester will not help in the slightest.
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Old May 28th 2017, 11:05 am   #66
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Default Re: Manchester

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Originally Posted by morpeth View Post
No amount of extra policing will prevent all or even a majority of terrorist incidents, but even if one incident prevented it is worth it.

My point is that in discussion of integration as part of the problem, other communities such as the Hindus or Sikhs are faced with same issues, and don't go around blowing up people. Maybe they just don't want to be British, I am unsure why that would be difficult to understand.

Great he was kicked out of Mosque, when he was reported, the issue is why the government doesn't have stronger policies to deal with people like this. But permitting funding of Mosques and schools by states like Saudi Arabia or Iran has to stop. And any Imam calling for violent acts or supporting radicalization, should be given a one way ticket back to where they came from.

Just accepting the situation isn't acceptable. All the clichés on British television in the aftermath of Manchester will not help in the slightest.
Using the argument in the first paragraph no UK government would underfund the NHS - but they do.

Second paragraph - Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims do blow each other up and the partitioning of the sub-continent into India, E and W Pakistan has hardly been smooth sailing. They don't have oil like in the Middle East so UK, US etc forces aren't there and so some of those of other religions who live in the UK don't perhaps develop the same antipathy. They're too busy providing the great British takeaway (the curry) anyway!

Third paragraph you shift the goal posts - he wasn't radicalised in the mosque is my point, it was on the internet, in cafes in S MCR, by schoolfriends etc. We have GCHQ, MI5/6, police etc monitoring the internet. (I would guess that this thread is being monitored somewhere?)

Who is accepting the situation? What is being done now doesn't seem to be working. If someone has a headache and takes a few aspirin and it doesn't cure it the answer doesn't always consist of taking 5 or 10 aspirin but could be another solution.
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Old May 28th 2017, 11:28 am   #67
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Default Re: Manchester

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Originally Posted by morpeth View Post
"As far as mosques is concerned, ..."

-------The issue is not religion, but locations that are used to indoctrinate and promote physical violence.
Err, slight problem there is that in theory ANY location could be used for a get together - flower arranging class for instance. What you were talking about was mosques, so religion is kinda core. And what I was saying is that you should treat any location/grouping in the same way, no get outs because it's connected with religion. It's when they start talking about killing the infidel that you need to act, and that just because they are saying that god says so, is no excuse.

And the critical bit is you have to treat all religions the same, no special treatment.

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Originally Posted by morpeth View Post
"Not allowed to do much of that via international treaty (it's questionable if current actions are legal). Frankly if you are at the stage where you have enough evidence to take away a passport, you should be much more closely involved in that individual anyway. Pretty much too late if they are at the travel stage."

---------I am unaware of any international treaty that restricts the British government form the terms and conditions of issuing its own passports- even within the EU each country has its own rules for issuance of passports.
You can't leave someone without a citizenship - so if they go abroad, you can't then say they can't come back (eg taking their passport when abroad).

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Originally Posted by morpeth View Post
"Pretty pointless. The attack surface is too wide. Better to keep tabs on the individuals than thinking guards will stop things. If nothing else the queue for the checkpoint is itself a target, or the queues to get out again afterwards (Manchester)."

--------------- I agree keeping tabs on individuals a better use of resources, but yes random checkpoints over a wider area certainly would be helpful in some instances.A lot better a bomb goes off at a checkpoint with less people than a lot more in an arena. Just commons sense.
Checkpoints create queues. Queues create targets. Therefore be very careful about creating checkpoints - since you are making things easy for the terrorist. Same on the way out, but railway stations instead.
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Old May 28th 2017, 12:23 pm   #68
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Default Re: Manchester

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Using the argument in the first paragraph no UK government would underfund the NHS - but they do.
That's because the UK can no longer afford the NHS in its current form - everything free for everyone forever is now not a viable option for a country with over GBP1 trillion in debt. Sure, they could try good old socialist 'tax the rich until they squeal' but they did that before and it didn't work - although I'm sure you'd like to see them try it again

Hope this helps
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Old May 28th 2017, 4:17 pm   #69
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Default Re: Manchester

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That's because the UK can no longer afford the NHS in its current form - everything free for everyone forever is now not a viable option for a country with over GBP1 trillion in debt. Sure, they could try good old socialist 'tax the rich until they squeal' but they did that before and it didn't work - although I'm sure you'd like to see them try it again

Hope this helps
Your posts never help actually. You actually support my point that throwing unlimited resources at terrorism isn't the answer. Manchester and counter terrorism is the subject of this thread.
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Old May 28th 2017, 6:15 pm   #70
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Default Re: Manchester

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Originally Posted by OzTennis View Post
Using the argument in the first paragraph no UK government would underfund the NHS - but they do.

Second paragraph - Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims do blow each other up and the partitioning of the sub-continent into India, E and W Pakistan has hardly been smooth sailing. They don't have oil like in the Middle East so UK, US etc forces aren't there and so some of those of other religions who live in the UK don't perhaps develop the same antipathy. They're too busy providing the great British takeaway (the curry) anyway!

Third paragraph you shift the goal posts - he wasn't radicalised in the mosque is my point, it was on the internet, in cafes in S MCR, by schoolfriends etc. We have GCHQ, MI5/6, police etc monitoring the internet. (I would guess that this thread is being monitored somewhere?)

Who is accepting the situation? What is being done now doesn't seem to be working. If someone has a headache and takes a few aspirin and it doesn't cure it the answer doesn't always consist of taking 5 or 10 aspirin but could be another solution.
Yes the partition was terrible, my point was that Hindus and Sikhs are not engaging in such terrorist acts in the UK-yet I assume subject to the same sort of alienation as well.

I am not shifting the goal posts , all of the goal posts should be looked at.

I agree what is being done isn't enough, so I believe stronger action needs to be taken. Monitoring the internet , why not just devote greater resources to shutting down radical websites ? Dealing with encryption issues ( I agree a tough one), deporting radicals, and yes hiring more police ( not reducing the number of police).
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Old May 28th 2017, 6:21 pm   #71
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Default Re: Manchester

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Originally Posted by GarryP View Post
Err, slight problem there is that in theory ANY location could be used for a get together - flower arranging class for instance. What you were talking about was mosques, so religion is kinda core. And what I was saying is that you should treat any location/grouping in the same way, no get outs because it's connected with religion. It's when they start talking about killing the infidel that you need to act, and that just because they are saying that god says so, is no excuse.

And the critical bit is you have to treat all religions the same, no special treatment.



You can't leave someone without a citizenship - so if they go abroad, you can't then say they can't come back (eg taking their passport when abroad).



Checkpoints create queues. Queues create targets. Therefore be very careful about creating checkpoints - since you are making things easy for the terrorist. Same on the way out, but railway stations instead.
Less people at checkpoint than at the larger event. So answer is simple, random checkpoints, or specific ones on the day of events certainly cant hurt, and could help.

Passports can be valid for travel to certain countries only with permission, US used such a system for many years. And yes of course they can be refused re-entry. I would think with information sharing already in place , such system could easily be expanded to cover all flights into trouble spots.

Any spot that is used for advocating such terror acts simply should be shut down, wherever it is and whatever the nominal reason for the meeting.
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Old May 28th 2017, 9:58 pm   #72
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Default Re: Manchester

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Which is why we need to tend toward assimilation and breaking up cultural ghettos than 'multiculturalism'. Particularly where we know that is a problem.
Careful sunshine, that was racist and intolerant when Pauline Hanson said it

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Why don't these people see themselves as British? There-in lies something to investigate further and perhaps to do things differently so they don't feel alienated?
Why the hell is the onus on us to change? The onus should surely be on them to stop blowing their hosts up. I get rather sick of people keep apologizing and appeasing, and changing nothing. What the world needs more people like this bloke

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Old May 28th 2017, 11:35 pm   #73
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Default Re: Manchester

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Your posts never help actually. You actually support my point that throwing unlimited resources at terrorism isn't the answer. Manchester and counter terrorism is the subject of this thread.
I help you enormously - you know so little that is relevant

Agree about the topic of.the thread but it was you who mentioned the NHS turbo
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Old May 29th 2017, 7:11 am   #74
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I help you enormously - you know so little that is relevant

Agree about the topic of.the thread but it was you who mentioned the NHS turbo
Context 'turbo' - Morpeth was saying spend more on police etc and if just one life is saved it's worth it - doesn't apply to NHS spending where hundreds of thousands of lives could be saved was my point.
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Old May 29th 2017, 10:50 am   #75
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Default Re: Manchester

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Rather than trying to take down websites etc. you behave more intelligently and allow them to highlight those that are thinking violent thoughts.
Allow who? The Islamic leadership? I am all good with that, but they are already allowed to do that.

What we need is the Islamic leadership, the good eggs, to back the good side of their religion and isolate the bad. There doesn't appear to be much leadership around this strategy.
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