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Old May 25th 2017, 9:21 am   #31
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Default Re: Manchester

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Originally Posted by GarryP View Post
Just that you usually get the "lock them all up" or "ban islam" type comments after every atrocity - usually be people who don't understand what the terrorist attack is supposed to achieve, and how it's playing into the terrorists hands.

You're right (in my estimation) that cutting the legs out from underneath religion is a positive move - but that has to be done on the quiet, and in ways that don't get noticed if you aren't to create a new group of murderous zealots.
Thanks Garry. As I said, it was just musing - trying to think of something, anything, that may cause a would-be suicide terrorist to think twice.
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Old May 25th 2017, 9:30 am   #32
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Default Re: Manchester

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Thanks Garry. As I said, it was just musing - trying to think of something, anything, that may cause a would-be suicide terrorist to think twice.
Getting them to think once would be an advance.
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Old May 25th 2017, 9:33 am   #33
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Default Re: Manchester

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Getting them to think once would be an advance.
My thoughts as I was typing!
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Old May 25th 2017, 9:40 am   #34
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Default Re: Manchester

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Originally Posted by spouse of scouse View Post
Thanks Garry. As I said, it was just musing - trying to think of something, anything, that may cause a would-be suicide terrorist to think twice.
When Allied soldiers liberated concentration camps some would march Germans from nearby villages to see the camps. Maybe clerics and teachers for known fundamentalist Mosques and schools be required to make presentations of the horror committed by these terrorists to their congregation and students- publicly disavow such acts during such presentations.
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Old May 25th 2017, 10:20 am   #35
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Default Re: Manchester

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My thoughts as I was typing!
They way it appears to work is that first generation immigrants are happy to be out of MENA and therefore gratefully to be somewhere better - although they don't assimilate and instead setup separate communities.

The problem then comes with the second generation. They have been bought up within that enclave of islam, and have a mismatch with school, general culture, etc. Some take the right path and make strides down the path towards assimilation, but a percentage veer the other way and become MORE islamic, complete with a rosey view of the place that their parents got away from.

Combine that with the US bombing things, the various wars, and the incendiary islamic rhetoric (imams are basically in competition with one another, so tend to try to one up) and you have a potent mix.

Then these young men hit the "young, dumb and full of c*m" stage. They want to make their mark on the world (but they are usually second tier), want to be someone, and rather than tagging walls, they get into the idea of 'making a statement'.

To deal with it, you need to interrupt that terrorism stupidity funnel. You can try and make those communities integrate and assimilate (but a bit late for that). You can go after the religion (but that hasn't worked in centuries). Or you can tag those that take the 'islamic nutter' path and try and divert them - including allowing them some route to 'making a mark' that doesn't involve killing people.

I've no idea if they have, but it wouldn't surprise me if they have a file on every islamic young male, complete with a socialisation index and an AI predicting if they are in the fertile recruitment area. It's 'surveillance state', but with the relative numbers, it's a credible approach - target and divert those at risk. It's interesting that this idiot seems to have grown up here, gone to Salford Uni, dropped out, and has been living in Libya recently. It looks somewhat like he was radicalised there rather than in the UK, and to have dropped off the UK radar.
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Old May 25th 2017, 12:39 pm   #36
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Default Re: Manchester

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Originally Posted by morpeth View Post
When Allied soldiers liberated concentration camps some would march Germans from nearby villages to see the camps. Maybe clerics and teachers for known fundamentalist Mosques and schools be required to make presentations of the horror committed by these terrorists to their congregation and students- publicly disavow such acts during such presentations.
Sounds as though you are thinking in this case that he was radicalised by the cleric at his mosque but it doesn't apply here.

Salman Abedi was supposedly a member of the Didsbury mosque.

Sheikh Mohammad Saeed said he believed Abedi had displayed a "face of hate" after the imam gave a sermon denouncing terrorism.

He was radicalised by another South Mancunian who recruited quite a few disaffected young muslims.
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Old May 25th 2017, 2:08 pm   #37
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Default Re: Manchester

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Originally Posted by GarryP View Post
They way it appears to work is that first generation immigrants are happy to be out of MENA and therefore gratefully to be somewhere better - although they don't assimilate and instead setup separate communities.

The problem then comes with the second generation. They have been bought up within that enclave of islam, and have a mismatch with school, general culture, etc. Some take the right path and make strides down the path towards assimilation, but a percentage veer the other way and become MORE islamic, complete with a rosey view of the place that their parents got away from.

Combine that with the US bombing things, the various wars, and the incendiary islamic rhetoric (imams are basically in competition with one another, so tend to try to one up) and you have a potent mix.

Then these young men hit the "young, dumb and full of c*m" stage. They want to make their mark on the world (but they are usually second tier), want to be someone, and rather than tagging walls, they get into the idea of 'making a statement'.

To deal with it, you need to interrupt that terrorism stupidity funnel. You can try and make those communities integrate and assimilate (but a bit late for that). You can go after the religion (but that hasn't worked in centuries). Or you can tag those that take the 'islamic nutter' path and try and divert them - including allowing them some route to 'making a mark' that doesn't involve killing people.

I've no idea if they have, but it wouldn't surprise me if they have a file on every islamic young male, complete with a socialisation index and an AI predicting if they are in the fertile recruitment area. It's 'surveillance state', but with the relative numbers, it's a credible approach - target and divert those at risk. It's interesting that this idiot seems to have grown up here, gone to Salford Uni, dropped out, and has been living in Libya recently. It looks somewhat like he was radicalised there rather than in the UK, and to have dropped off the UK radar.
I honestly wouldn't be surprised if in the 2nd Generations case, that there is an element of local female rejection, in their formative years whilst they choose their paths in life.... playing a part. Hence the target in this case.
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Old May 25th 2017, 4:03 pm   #38
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Default Re: Manchester

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Originally Posted by OzTennis View Post
Sounds as though you are thinking in this case that he was radicalised by the cleric at his mosque but it doesn't apply here.

Salman Abedi was supposedly a member of the Didsbury mosque.

Sheikh Mohammad Saeed said he believed Abedi had displayed a "face of hate" after the imam gave a sermon denouncing terrorism.

He was radicalised by another South Mancunian who recruited quite a few disaffected young muslims.
I don't know in this particular case how this individual was radicalized- but there is a problem and some new and additional measures should be taken.
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Old May 25th 2017, 7:41 pm   #39
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Default Re: Manchester

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Then these young men hit the "young, dumb and full of c*m" stage. They want to make their mark on the world (but they are usually second tier), want to be someone, and rather than tagging walls, they get into the idea of 'making a statement'.
Yes. When your youthful ego and sub-standard self worth can't take it anymore you can join a gang, get into drugs, or get into Islam.

The problem is, the Koran is such an ancient interpretation, some can take its stories with a grain of salt, some can't and use it for their us v them, intolerant, the world is against me mentality.

The bottom line is, gangs are outlawed in many places, drugs are too. A few spoil it for many. Why should Islam be treated any differently?

If the interpretation doesn't suit today, we don't have much choice.

Laws like this just don't gel with the west.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-39996224
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Old May 25th 2017, 10:48 pm   #40
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Default Re: Manchester

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When Allied soldiers liberated concentration camps some would march Germans from nearby villages to see the camps. Maybe clerics and teachers for known fundamentalist Mosques and schools be required to make presentations of the horror committed by these terrorists to their congregation and students- publicly disavow such acts during such presentations.
An excellent suggestion. Those who advocate violence ought be forced to witness the result of it. Many commentators consider Islamic terrorism in Western cities to be "blowback" from Western countries' terrorist activities in the Middle East - the murder and mutilation of peaceful villagers by British bombs, and the like. So maybe we should add a few British archbishops and MPs to the presentations. Same horror, same murders, same mutilations, same ruthless attitude towards people of a different culture. Same absence of remorse...
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Old May 25th 2017, 11:48 pm   #41
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Default Re: Manchester

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The bottom line is, gangs are outlawed in many places, drugs are too. A few spoil it for many. Why should Islam be treated any differently?
And, of course, that means we don't have gangs, or drugs ? ......

If the question is how to reduce the incidence of young, male, muslim, idiots blowing themselves, and others, up - you can't expect laws are going to make a difference. You have to be more subtle than that, and more effective. It's more about diversion, opportunities, marketing and psychology - the types of things that promote the zero talent Kardashians - than yet another law.
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Old May 26th 2017, 6:44 am   #42
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Default Re: Manchester

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And, of course, that means we don't have gangs, or drugs ? ......

If the question is how to reduce the incidence of young, male, muslim, idiots blowing themselves, and others, up - you can't expect laws are going to make a difference. You have to be more subtle than that, and more effective. It's more about diversion, opportunities, marketing and psychology - the types of things that promote the zero talent Kardashians - than yet another law.
So lets make the ban a starting point and work the discussion up from there. If you were to put Islam on the same society harming pedestal as drugs and gangs, then a ban is the correct starting point.

If you strip it right back and look at why disgruntled youth find Islam as an avenue, the same as drugs or gangs, its the interpretation of the Koran that allows the justification for the disgruntled to follow evil paths.

Islam needs an overhaul, it needs a leader, it needs modernisation for western society as a starting point. And as you rightly say its more about diversion, opportunities, marketing and psychology.

But without some type of leadership, the above won't happen. Perhaps control is the only way.
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Old May 26th 2017, 7:13 am   #43
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Default Re: Manchester

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Originally Posted by GarryP View Post
And, of course, that means we don't have gangs, or drugs ? ......

If the question is how to reduce the incidence of young, male, muslim, idiots blowing themselves, and others, up - you can't expect laws are going to make a difference. You have to be more subtle than that, and more effective. It's more about diversion, opportunities, marketing and psychology - the types of things that promote the zero talent Kardashians - than yet another law.
Perhaps government should hire more people to take down the internet sites promotion radicalization could be another action to be taken.
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Old May 26th 2017, 9:39 am   #44
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Default Re: Manchester

Saying it's not all Muslims is like saying not all Yorkshire truck drivers rape and murder prostitutes. Any sane person knows it, it doesn't warrant saying. What does warrant saying is that the hate preachers, deport them or jail them, we know what they incite, we know what they stand for, and the depths to which they'll sink so deny them access to the sheep they convince to murder for them, their followers should get the same treatment.

These arrests made after the tragedy, the police knew these people and what they stood for, the arrests needed making before it happened. Police said 'he was on our radar' I'm sure that's of comfort to the grieving families. We need to piss these people off, close the mosques where hate is being preached, only then will we have a good relationship with moderate muslims because that's what they want too isn't it?

The moderate bit, as with moderate Christians, means they have an aetheist sitting on their shoulder telling them that sections of their good book are bollocks, we need to feed that aetheist until it thinks the whole book is bollocks, which it quite clearly is.
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Old May 26th 2017, 12:37 pm   #45
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Default Re: Manchester

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I've no idea if they have, but it wouldn't surprise me if they have a file on every islamic young male, complete with a socialisation index and an AI predicting if they are in the .
Best ever 'expert bloke in pub' comment ever !
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