the troubadour

Tomorrow as over recent decades large numbers of Aussies and Kiwi's will likely descend on Turkey to commemorate the Anzac/British Gallipoli landing, although owing to the Turkish political situation and far fewer tourists going to that country, numbers at Gallipoli will likely be like wise down.


What many people don't realise is that Turkey is a changing nation. The present government is asserting Turkish authority far more and in turn far more nationalistic in nature.


There are now thousands of young Turks marching to celebrate their armies halting the Anzac invaders in the Highlands of Gallipoli with a enactment of their 57th Regiment that restored national honour with prayer sessions conducted before and after the march. Since 2005, Turkish authorities have built eleven cemeteries to commemorate fallen soldiers and there are plans for open air sites for prayer.

Something in excess of one million Turkish pay their respects to their fallen every year, and another fifteen cemeteries are to be built in the area.


I suppose the question could be asked, just how much longer will young tourists (for the most part) be welcome to the area to commemorate what was after all an invasion of their territory and a change in interpretation a little in history with a something of a break from the more pro western stance of former times.


Should countries like Australia and New Zealand reasonably expect to be continued to be welcome to a country they invaded or at least attacked?


Perhaps the commemorations are better held on the Western Front, in Belgium and France? Burma Railway site in Thailand?

Beoz

Did you rip this off from here?

http://theconversation.com/gallipoli-commemorations-of-turkish-youth-tell-us-much-about-politics-in-turkey-90439

scrubbedexpat098

I think these are pretty good points. One of the things that Anzac day remembers is the comradeship that developed between the Aussies and the Turks. It'd be a real shame if the current trend is to forget that war is hell for both sides.

The French ceremony at Villers Bretonneux was very moving

Not really the thread to play your one upmanship games on

Gordon Barlow

Well, I don't know, Troubadour: Turkey did actually win the battles of Gallipoli, and send the invaders off with a flea in their collective ear! So the natives do have something to celebrate. When my wife and I visited the place in 1965 (yes!), there was nothing near the site of the ANZAC landings except a shabby little hut with a part-time caretaker and a few rusty rifles and helmets. So the museums there must be relatively recent, in what we can presume is a deliberate attempt to attract foreign tourists.

Beoz

Not really a thread to be having at all. Sources of stories should be respected though.

ozzieeagle

When did those pilgrimages start in Ernest Gordon? I've got a feeling it was after the Bicentennial in 1988. I didn't think about the Bicentennial too much at the time. When I look back a hell of a lot has changed for Australia since then. It sort of became a nation rather than another commonwealth country from that point on.


Since 1988 Gallipoli has definitely become a focal point for the majority of Australians.

Gordon Barlow

The movie "Gallipoli" came out in 1981: I wonder if that might that have been more of a watershed moment than the Bicentennial. I've been out since 1963, except for visits, and my first passport was a British Passport with the word "Australia" under the crest. It seems to me that the transition from a British colony (well, a Commonwealth country, technically!) to an independent nation was a fairly gradual thing. I would actually credit Barry Humphreys with being partly responsible for the change. Edna Everage was an incredibly popular force of nature in England, and stark departure from what the English had until then perceived as "the average Aussie". What do you reckon?

the troubadour

Actually the subject of Anzac participation with the pomp and ceremony involved, ever increasingly so, being held on the territory of the actual enemy nation involved, that was invaded during the process, is one that has long interested me, in being rather unique in that process.


Now I am pretty much tuned up with a lot of things within the historical/political process and as such maintain an open mind I like to think towards those subjects of interest within that framework which are many and varied. Most I would not probably bother with opening a thread on a forum as this one.


As such my source is no one particular area, but as most observers interested in the subject matter of society/politics /history contributions will likely be obtained from numerous sources in order to fill in the gaps in the completion of modern political considerations, which having no inside knowledge into the workings of Turkish politics will obviously come from media and related sources.


You have some sort of problem with that? Rather more pathetic than usual I am afraid. And no nothing has been ripped off.


Don't worry not a single utterance has been removed from the Coalition manifesto so your alright to go ahead and quote your usual source of information.

the troubadour

What are you inferring now? Not the thread we should be having. What absolute rot. Anything and everything can be questioned and the questions posed are of genuine interest.


There are no sources to protect. The point of interest being a more authoritive , right wing, nationalistic Turkish government is in place and apparently changing the narrative.


Perhaps the Gallipoli thing got just too big and too populist? After all it is only since Howard in the nineties that the whole thing became so big ....

the troubadour

John Howard and his right wing, Liberal government got it off to a cracking pace. Anzac Day was in decline somewhat, as the old diggers were dying out, even questioning as to whether the day would be of any significance in coming years. Howard turned it all around. Surely you recall?


I do not recall 1988 as being the turning point in itself, although the move towards more national pride may have started to flame at this point?

the troubadour

I saw Gallipoli down the Kings Road, in Chelsea not long after it came out.

Pretty decent film. I recall Australia went through a long phase of making retrospective films through out the seventies and eighties. So much looking backwards for such a young nation.


Barry Humphreys made fun of the Aussie stereotype, although any number of Aussies down The Earl's Court Road attempted to live up to the reputation. They certainly were not everyone's cup of tea with rough and crude being two terms coming to mind, but I digress.


One point of reference though I vividly recall is watching the Rugby World Cup match in Richmond fan park, couldn't get a ticket for Twickenham sadly, where South Africa played Australia.


This was a time of great change in South Africa. A new government, flag and anthem. Come the playing of the national anthems almost all to a man from the South African camp stood in respect of the new (great sounding) anthem. A few 'old' hardliners that refused to stand waving the old flag copped a fair amount of abuse.
Come the Australian anthem, barely a handful stood, (Aussies out numbered Saffies at least three to one) which amused the part of South Africans with at the time.


Hence from this action alone, I would suggest that the 'present national pride/identity or how one would address it was not in evidence back then.


The day was' reawakened', if that is the correct term by policy introduced by the later in the 90's Howard Government.

ozzieeagle

The Adventures of Barry Mackenzie certainly put Australia on my Radar, really enjoyable film at the time, plus it was the catalyst for Fosters to become a popular beer in the UK.

As for Gallipoli, it certainly was a much lower key event when I first migrated here thats for sure. There's a huge swathe of Aussies that think they were the only Commonwealth nation involved there as well. So not a lot of insight as to what really happened amongst the general population.

Still can't take away that it was a huge sacrifice and history very much worth recognising.

Gordon Barlow

"I wouldn't say no to a nice cold beer, and I wouldn't say no to a naughty!" Ahh, they don't write them like that any more! Absolutely true to life, we thought at the time it came out. The "adventures" were exaggerated, but not by all that much.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ad...Barry_McKenzie

the troubadour

Yes as mentioned Howard was the one who "popularised' the day, if I can call it as such.


Only new Zealand from memory, as per population, lost more on the battle field, I'm reasonably sure in stating.
Indeed a lot of sacrifice was endured. I'm not sure I fully approve of the extent the day was resurrected under the Howard government, but can live with it and can fully endorse people going to the area of the war graves. There are the war graves to numerous nations found there and the landscape is certainly has an 'eerie feel', at least when I was there, with fog and a biting cold in a low land/flat landscape.


I do think the full story should be taught at schools and not just remnants of historical fact .


Back to OP though, I did find it interesting that the fields of France were the centre of activity yesterday and not Gallipoli. That being something I imagine will be increasingly the centre point as the stage moves away from Gallipoli.

the troubadour

The term I recall from that film, being 'Going for a Techno Coloured Yawn' , which appeared to enter Australian vernacular shortly after this point. Just as "Point Percy at the Porcelain' became somewhat vogue with some of the Aussies down the Earls Court Road.


I guess Bazza became something of a model among some in their dealings with The Poms.