Go Back   British Expats / Living & Moving Abroad / Australia / The Barbie

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old Aug 15th 2017, 6:36 am   #91
GarryP 
snɐןɔ ʎʇıuɐs
 
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,794
GarryP has a reputation beyond reputeGarryP has a reputation beyond reputeGarryP has a reputation beyond reputeGarryP has a reputation beyond reputeGarryP has a reputation beyond reputeGarryP has a reputation beyond reputeGarryP has a reputation beyond reputeGarryP has a reputation beyond reputeGarryP has a reputation beyond reputeGarryP has a reputation beyond reputeGarryP has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Dual Citizenship A Barrier ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beoz View Post
Should be a no brainer for the high court based on the current wording of Section 44.
Quite true. Bang to rights - ineligible to stand.

The 'I didn't know' attempt at a defence isn't going to fly, since anyone could claim they 'didn't know' - ignorance is no innocence. The onus is on you to meet the requirements and not be :
Quote:
a subject or a citizen
if you want to stand.

And even you could answer this for Joyce and get the appropriate answer.

https://www.govt.nz/browse/nz-passpo...e-a-citizen-2/
GarryP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 15th 2017, 6:57 am   #92
Beoz 
Lost in BE Cyberspace
 
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 10,573
Beoz has a reputation beyond reputeBeoz has a reputation beyond reputeBeoz has a reputation beyond reputeBeoz has a reputation beyond reputeBeoz has a reputation beyond reputeBeoz has a reputation beyond reputeBeoz has a reputation beyond reputeBeoz has a reputation beyond reputeBeoz has a reputation beyond reputeBeoz has a reputation beyond reputeBeoz has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Dual Citizenship A Barrier ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GarryP View Post
Quite true. Bang to rights - ineligible to stand.

The 'I didn't know' attempt at a defence isn't going to fly, since anyone could claim they 'didn't know' - ignorance is no innocence. The onus is on you to meet the requirements and not be :
Of course the "I didn't know" defence will fly when the section states "acknowledgement of allegiance, obedience, or adherence to a foreign power"


Quote:
Originally Posted by GarryP View Post

if you want to stand.

And even you could answer this for Joyce and get the appropriate answer.

https://www.govt.nz/browse/nz-passpo...e-a-citizen-2/
Well Garry, you just screwed your own argument with that.

I just went through and answered as Joyce would.

The tripper "Was at least 1 of your parents a New Zealand citizen when you were born?" In Joyce's case, he would honestly answer "No" because his father was a British subject when he left NZ.

The result "You are not a New Zealand citizen. You may not meet the requirements for NZ citizenship. Check the requirements."
Beoz is online now   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 15th 2017, 7:25 am   #93
GarryP 
snɐןɔ ʎʇıuɐs
 
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,794
GarryP has a reputation beyond reputeGarryP has a reputation beyond reputeGarryP has a reputation beyond reputeGarryP has a reputation beyond reputeGarryP has a reputation beyond reputeGarryP has a reputation beyond reputeGarryP has a reputation beyond reputeGarryP has a reputation beyond reputeGarryP has a reputation beyond reputeGarryP has a reputation beyond reputeGarryP has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Dual Citizenship A Barrier ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beoz View Post
Of course the "I didn't know" defence will fly when the section states "acknowledgement of allegiance, obedience, or adherence to a foreign power"
You're going to need to get better at reading legalise. Here, let me help you parse it :
Is under any acknowledgement of allegiance, obedience, or

adherence to a foreign power, or

is a subject or

a citizen or

entitled to the rights or privileges of a subject or citizen of a foreign power: or
See? They are all independent elements. And the third one is the the one that applies directly to Joyce. It doesn't say "and he knew about it", or "and he wasn't crossing his fingers". It simply states they aren't allowed to stand if a subject or a citizen. He was and is, so he isn't (an MP).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beoz View Post
The tripper "Was at least 1 of your parents a New Zealand citizen when you were born?" In Joyce's case, he would honestly answer "No" because his father was a British subject when he left NZ.
Sorry, nope. Joyce, and his father, would know he was as a New Zealand citizen because all those born there got citizenship when they created it. Thus you would have (purposely) answered incorrectly.

Seriously, his father was born in NZ, it's not a complex one.

Here, how about this viewpoint :
"It's like if you're driving on the road without a licence and you get pulled over. Well, you're in a spot of bother. They were members of parliament. It's quite clear under Section 44, you can't be a member of parliament and have dual citizenship. It's black and white. The outcome is black and white. That's just, that's just the way it is...

I think you just have got to do your homework and make sure you're not a citizen of two countries when you stand for parliament ... ignorance is not an excuse"
Give you two guesses who's words those are ....

Last edited by GarryP; Aug 15th 2017 at 7:32 am.
GarryP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 15th 2017, 7:59 am   #94
Grumpy Poppy
Moderator
 
cresta57's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2002
Location: Redneck Wonderland
Posts: 9,792
cresta57 has a reputation beyond reputecresta57 has a reputation beyond reputecresta57 has a reputation beyond reputecresta57 has a reputation beyond reputecresta57 has a reputation beyond reputecresta57 has a reputation beyond reputecresta57 has a reputation beyond reputecresta57 has a reputation beyond reputecresta57 has a reputation beyond reputecresta57 has a reputation beyond reputecresta57 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Dual Citizenship A Barrier ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by old.sparkles View Post
You do not need a certificate to show you are a true citizen. Lots of people have children here who are British Citizens by descent who have neither passport or certificate - and neither is needed to be a citizen (proving it maybe but even that can be done without a child having either).
I hear what you are saying but if the case was reversed and he had to prove he was a citizen he'd have to pay a fee as do numerous other Kiwis born here. No fee has ever been paid.
I personally think a dubious claim that a person born in Australia can be adopted by another country without his/her consent is ridiculous. Kiwis consider all Aussies to be their citizens so imo as their [NZ] legislation stands at the moment every prospective member of parliament would need to renounce citizenship of NZ in order to be eligible to stand, you only need look at their wording.
I also further contest that his father was ever a NZ citizen it didn't exist in 1947 when he left. He moved here as a British subject, then, when the citizenship act came into force in 1949 he automatically became an Aussie citizen. You can't be something that didn't exist. Follow the link in the NZ citizenship application and when you get to the bit that says was either of your parents a NZ citizen at the time of your birth his 100% honest answer would be no. Unless he'd applied for it after 1949 [and before 1967] when his Aussie citizenship had been conferred upon him his father went straight from British subject to Aussie citizen.
__________________
Sean Ò¿Ó.
cresta57 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 15th 2017, 8:41 am   #95
Beoz 
Lost in BE Cyberspace
 
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 10,573
Beoz has a reputation beyond reputeBeoz has a reputation beyond reputeBeoz has a reputation beyond reputeBeoz has a reputation beyond reputeBeoz has a reputation beyond reputeBeoz has a reputation beyond reputeBeoz has a reputation beyond reputeBeoz has a reputation beyond reputeBeoz has a reputation beyond reputeBeoz has a reputation beyond reputeBeoz has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Dual Citizenship A Barrier ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GarryP View Post
You're going to need to get better at reading legalise. Here, let me help you parse it :
Is under any acknowledgement of allegiance, obedience, or

adherence to a foreign power, or

is a subject or

a citizen or

entitled to the rights or privileges of a subject or citizen of a foreign power: or
See? They are all independent elements. And the third one is the the one that applies directly to Joyce. It doesn't say "and he knew about it", or "and he wasn't crossing his fingers". It simply states they aren't allowed to stand if a subject or a citizen. He was and is, so he isn't (an MP).


Sorry, nope. Joyce, and his father, would know he was as a New Zealand citizen because all those born there got citizenship when they created it. Thus you would have (purposely) answered incorrectly.

Seriously, his father was born in NZ, it's not a complex one.

Here, how about this viewpoint :
"It's like if you're driving on the road without a licence and you get pulled over. Well, you're in a spot of bother. They were members of parliament. It's quite clear under Section 44, you can't be a member of parliament and have dual citizenship. It's black and white. The outcome is black and white. That's just, that's just the way it is...

I think you just have got to do your homework and make sure you're not a citizen of two countries when you stand for parliament ... ignorance is not an excuse"
Give you two guesses who's words those are ....
Its already been said the legal teams will use "Is under any acknowledgement of allegiance, obedience, or adherence to a foreign power,"

How would his father know what was going on in NZ if he was in Australia? News? When does the news in Australia report anything in NZ?
Beoz is online now   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 15th 2017, 8:54 am   #96
GarryP 
snɐןɔ ʎʇıuɐs
 
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,794
GarryP has a reputation beyond reputeGarryP has a reputation beyond reputeGarryP has a reputation beyond reputeGarryP has a reputation beyond reputeGarryP has a reputation beyond reputeGarryP has a reputation beyond reputeGarryP has a reputation beyond reputeGarryP has a reputation beyond reputeGarryP has a reputation beyond reputeGarryP has a reputation beyond reputeGarryP has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Dual Citizenship A Barrier ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beoz View Post
Its already been said the legal teams will use "Is under any acknowledgement of allegiance, obedience, or adherence to a foreign power,"
That line doesn't get a look in. He's out because of the line above it. That line only exists in case a country doesn't call it 'subject' or 'citizen', as a catch all. It doesn't apply.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beoz View Post
How would his father know what was going on in NZ if he was in Australia? News? When does the news in Australia report anything in NZ?
So you have no idea what's happening with brexit?
GarryP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 15th 2017, 9:35 am   #97
Beoz 
Lost in BE Cyberspace
 
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 10,573
Beoz has a reputation beyond reputeBeoz has a reputation beyond reputeBeoz has a reputation beyond reputeBeoz has a reputation beyond reputeBeoz has a reputation beyond reputeBeoz has a reputation beyond reputeBeoz has a reputation beyond reputeBeoz has a reputation beyond reputeBeoz has a reputation beyond reputeBeoz has a reputation beyond reputeBeoz has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Dual Citizenship A Barrier ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GarryP View Post
That line doesn't get a look in. He's out because of the line above it. That line only exists in case a country doesn't call it 'subject' or 'citizen', as a catch all. It doesn't apply.

So you have no idea what's happening with brexit?
Of course it applies.

Brexit?

So how would his father know he was a Kiwi in 1948? Internet?

See post 94 if you don't like mine
Beoz is online now   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 15th 2017, 9:44 am   #98
GarryP 
snɐןɔ ʎʇıuɐs
 
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,794
GarryP has a reputation beyond reputeGarryP has a reputation beyond reputeGarryP has a reputation beyond reputeGarryP has a reputation beyond reputeGarryP has a reputation beyond reputeGarryP has a reputation beyond reputeGarryP has a reputation beyond reputeGarryP has a reputation beyond reputeGarryP has a reputation beyond reputeGarryP has a reputation beyond reputeGarryP has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Dual Citizenship A Barrier ?

Oh dear, looks like another lib one, Ann Sudmalis, is a British citizen by descent :

Gilmore MP embroiled in dual citizenship scandal | South Coast Register

She currently 'looking to clarify' .... ahem.
76 coalition MPs, sitting on the bench
76 coalition MPs, sitting on the bench
And if one coalition MP should accidentally fall.
There'll be not enough coalition MPs, sitting on the bench.
..
GarryP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 15th 2017, 11:09 am   #99
Grumpy Poppy
Moderator
 
cresta57's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2002
Location: Redneck Wonderland
Posts: 9,792
cresta57 has a reputation beyond reputecresta57 has a reputation beyond reputecresta57 has a reputation beyond reputecresta57 has a reputation beyond reputecresta57 has a reputation beyond reputecresta57 has a reputation beyond reputecresta57 has a reputation beyond reputecresta57 has a reputation beyond reputecresta57 has a reputation beyond reputecresta57 has a reputation beyond reputecresta57 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Dual Citizenship A Barrier ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beoz View Post
Of course it applies.

Brexit?

So how would his father know he was a Kiwi in 1948? Internet?

See post 94 if you don't like mine
He's applying a 2017 24hr media perspective to 1947 Tamworth, be lucky to even get a reliable radio signal back then, crikey they can't even get a mobile signal in 2017. Maybe they trained Kiwi birds as carrier pigeons
__________________
Sean Ò¿Ó.
cresta57 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 15th 2017, 11:30 am   #100
Grumpy Poppy
Moderator
 
cresta57's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2002
Location: Redneck Wonderland
Posts: 9,792
cresta57 has a reputation beyond reputecresta57 has a reputation beyond reputecresta57 has a reputation beyond reputecresta57 has a reputation beyond reputecresta57 has a reputation beyond reputecresta57 has a reputation beyond reputecresta57 has a reputation beyond reputecresta57 has a reputation beyond reputecresta57 has a reputation beyond reputecresta57 has a reputation beyond reputecresta57 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Dual Citizenship A Barrier ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GarryP View Post
Oh dear, looks like another lib one, Ann Sudmalis, is a British citizen by descent :

Gilmore MP embroiled in dual citizenship scandal | South Coast Register

She currently 'looking to clarify' .... ahem.
76 coalition MPs, sitting on the bench
76 coalition MPs, sitting on the bench
And if one coalition MP should accidentally fall.
There'll be not enough coalition MPs, sitting on the bench.
..
Once again she's entitled to it by virtue of her mother but hasn't applied for it. When you're getting down to semantics of foreign states automatically conferring citizenship upon unwitting recipients you're really starting to clutch at straws. What next are we going to go to grandparents and great grandparents? If we go back far enough the only eligible MP's will be the 5 Indigenous Australians.
__________________
Sean Ò¿Ó.
cresta57 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 15th 2017, 11:36 am   #101
BE Enthusiast
 
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 854
carcajou has a reputation beyond reputecarcajou has a reputation beyond reputecarcajou has a reputation beyond reputecarcajou has a reputation beyond reputecarcajou has a reputation beyond reputecarcajou has a reputation beyond reputecarcajou has a reputation beyond reputecarcajou has a reputation beyond reputecarcajou has a reputation beyond reputecarcajou has a reputation beyond reputecarcajou has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Dual Citizenship A Barrier ?

Being "entitled" to citizenship does not make one a citizen. You cannot renounce an entitlement as the Sydney Morning Herald suggested. That is absurd.

She is either a citizen or not; being eligible to become a citizen, but not taking that up, means she is not a citizen.

If she is a citizen she should resign.
carcajou is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 15th 2017, 11:37 am   #102
BE Enthusiast
 
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 854
carcajou has a reputation beyond reputecarcajou has a reputation beyond reputecarcajou has a reputation beyond reputecarcajou has a reputation beyond reputecarcajou has a reputation beyond reputecarcajou has a reputation beyond reputecarcajou has a reputation beyond reputecarcajou has a reputation beyond reputecarcajou has a reputation beyond reputecarcajou has a reputation beyond reputecarcajou has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Dual Citizenship A Barrier ?

PS - If we start declaring as ineligible anyone who could theoretically apply for foreign citizenship, that would also knock out Penny Wong as well. Oh the irony!
carcajou is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 15th 2017, 11:54 am   #103
BE Enthusiast
 
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 854
carcajou has a reputation beyond reputecarcajou has a reputation beyond reputecarcajou has a reputation beyond reputecarcajou has a reputation beyond reputecarcajou has a reputation beyond reputecarcajou has a reputation beyond reputecarcajou has a reputation beyond reputecarcajou has a reputation beyond reputecarcajou has a reputation beyond reputecarcajou has a reputation beyond reputecarcajou has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Dual Citizenship A Barrier ?

Kiwis consider all Aussies to be their citizens so imo as their [NZ] legislation stands at the moment every prospective member of parliament would need to renounce citizenship of NZ in order to be eligible to stand, you only need look at their wording.


This is inaccurate. Australian Citizens in New Zealand automatically get PR but are not considered New Zealand Citizens and do not have the same rights and privileges as New Zealand Citizens.

The rest of your point I understand. I also heard someone explain that New Zealand reinstated a citizenship law a few years ago that retroactively made Barnaby an NZ citizen, but he may not have been one in 2005 when he investigated it.
carcajou is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 15th 2017, 12:34 pm   #104
Beoz 
Lost in BE Cyberspace
 
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 10,573
Beoz has a reputation beyond reputeBeoz has a reputation beyond reputeBeoz has a reputation beyond reputeBeoz has a reputation beyond reputeBeoz has a reputation beyond reputeBeoz has a reputation beyond reputeBeoz has a reputation beyond reputeBeoz has a reputation beyond reputeBeoz has a reputation beyond reputeBeoz has a reputation beyond reputeBeoz has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Dual Citizenship A Barrier ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GarryP View Post
Oh dear, looks like another lib one, Ann Sudmalis, is a British citizen by descent :

Gilmore MP embroiled in dual citizenship scandal | South Coast Register

She currently 'looking to clarify' .... ahem.
76 coalition MPs, sitting on the bench
76 coalition MPs, sitting on the bench
And if one coalition MP should accidentally fall.
There'll be not enough coalition MPs, sitting on the bench.
..
Don't worry about that. There's 5 over in the loonies with big question marks.

It must be said, its a shame you would rather a country run by a team of dirty tactics. Those colluding with a foreign political party, union scandals, mediscare. Shame on you.
Beoz is online now   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 15th 2017, 12:46 pm   #105
GarryP 
snɐןɔ ʎʇıuɐs
 
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,794
GarryP has a reputation beyond reputeGarryP has a reputation beyond reputeGarryP has a reputation beyond reputeGarryP has a reputation beyond reputeGarryP has a reputation beyond reputeGarryP has a reputation beyond reputeGarryP has a reputation beyond reputeGarryP has a reputation beyond reputeGarryP has a reputation beyond reputeGarryP has a reputation beyond reputeGarryP has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Dual Citizenship A Barrier ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beoz View Post
It must be said, its a shame you would rather a country run by a team of dirty tactics.
GarryP is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   British Expats / Living & Moving Abroad / Australia / The Barbie


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT. The time now is 5:55 am.


Powered by vBulletin: ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 1999-2010 BritishExpats.com