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Old Apr 26th 2016, 9:54 am   #46
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Default Re: Bye bye Liberal Government..... will you ever learn.

I always gave Abbott credit for holding the Liberals together while Labor was imploding. He kept his team on a short leash, and factional shenanigans were carefully managed out of public sight.

There are two reasons why Turnbull cannot do this:

* he lacks the hard-right conservative authoritarian ideology of Abbott
* he is universally loathed among the party's conservative faction

It's going to be a very tight election, but I think Turnbull can drag the Liberals to a second term if he makes some tactical concessions.
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Old Apr 26th 2016, 10:01 am   #47
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Default Re: Bye bye Liberal Government..... will you ever learn.

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Originally Posted by Vash the Stampede View Post
I always gave Abbott credit for holding the Liberals together while Labor was imploding. He kept his team on a short leash, and factional shenanigans were carefully managed out of public sight.

There are two reasons why Turnbull cannot do this:

* he lacks the hard-right conservative authoritarian ideology of Abbott
* he is universally loathed among the party's conservative faction

It's going to be a very tight election, but I think Turnbull can drag the Liberals to a second term if he makes some tactical concessions.
TA was a good PM but because a lot of Australian voters are in denial and unable to accept reality, he couldn't win a 2nd term

Turnbull is an ok alternative and he'll get this one - the electorate know that Shorten would be a CFMEU inspired disaster
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Old Apr 26th 2016, 10:10 am   #48
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Default Re: Bye bye Liberal Government..... will you ever learn.

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It's going to be a very tight election, but I think Turnbull can drag the Liberals to a second term if he makes some tactical concessions.
To whom?

Concessions to the far right tendency in his own party would just alienate the voters even more. There's nothing they want that the Labor voters would accept.

Concessions to the more centralist, conservative middle (to gain voters) will infuriate the far right tendency, and Abbott won't keep his dumb mouth shut.

Tax cuts are ruled out, and tax raises also - which will probably mean the loss of the AAA rating before the election. So he can't really concede to the business lobby either.

The only option I can see is Murdoch. It's been noticeable that the murdoch chorus hasn't been singing sweetly for Turnbull, so what could he do that would get the geriatric Palpatine figure to lie for him, like he lied for Abbott?
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Old Apr 26th 2016, 10:17 am   #49
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Default Re: Bye bye Liberal Government..... will you ever learn.

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The only option I can see is Murdoch. It's been noticeable that the murdoch chorus hasn't been singing sweetly for Turnbull, so what could he do that would get the geriatric Palpatine figure to lie for him, like he lied for Abbott?
When did people stop thinking for themselves?

I don't listen to what Murdoch has to say, why do you?

If some want to be influenced by Murdoch, that's their issue

Click couldn't give a shit
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Old Apr 26th 2016, 11:58 am   #50
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Default Re: Bye bye Liberal Government..... will you ever learn.

So which topic are we focussing on here? Closing the generational home ownership problem or making the wealthy pay more? Happy to chat about the generational home ownership problem but I'm getting bored at defending the wealthy from the resentful.

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Well there's a lot of selective quoting of statistics going on...and a lot of quoting of individual numbers rather than looking at the overall impact.
Absolutely and your last paragraph outlines that beautifully. I referenced that left wing publications in post #39.

What is interesting about that article, other than it has zero defined facts and all speculation, is that it shows the highest earners have the most debt. So what - you would expect the wealthiest to be servicing the most debt. They are in a position to collect more debt. Firstly it doesn't mean they use negative gearing. Secondly it shows the wealthiest are the least likeliest to use negative gearing. So whatever spin the ABC choose to put on it, the wealthiest don't use negative gearing as much as the ALP would like you to believe.

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You've stated a couple of times that the highest income earners don't negatively gear, but the ABS says otherwise. Every income group from $45k to $500k+ who holds investment property has at least 65% who are negatively geared. Yes, 65% of landlords in the 500k+ income bracket are negatively geared. 68% in the 250k to 500k bracket. The highest is 73% in the $60k to $80k. Slightly higher, but hardly a dramatically different investment strategy.
Doesn't it seem strange to you that those earning +250K account for 3% of total investment property ownership? Perhaps its doing what is says on the tin - people in that pay bracket who actually declare both a rental income and a loss.

OR

Those in the middle income range, who clearly make up the bulk of NG users, are so reliant on negative gearing that any change would be catastrophic.

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Or putting it another way

And the overall impact is that half (40-50%) of the cost of NG is attributed to the top 10% of earners. I don't expect the 'mum and dad battlers' are in that group? Surely that fact in itself means that the emotional arguments about upsetting front line workers is a diversion?

So what. You would expect the wealthiest to have the highest costs. They would have the highest interest to pay, they would have the greatest difference between mortgages and rent.

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While you've said many times you are opposed to NG you seem to be proposing a do nothing strategy? Why not draw a line under it from a certain date? Why not limit NG to a single investment property after a certain date? Why not limit it to new builds like Labor's idea?

Data, before you ask. Now I get it, this is a link from the ABC...but the data comes from the ABS or RBA, click the links under the charts to get to it.
I am opposed to NG - 10% use it, 90% don't. Its not fair for the 90%. But the damage is done. As I have said before (please don't fall into the trap of saying things I did not say - post #32) ways and means of help change the skew of Australia's home ownership need to be created.

So what is Labours idea intended to achieve? Is it intended to help the generational home onwership gap? If so how do they intend on doing that? Reducing home prices? OK that's great for people who are looking to get on the property ladder, but what about the millions who have their own home or investment property as an asset. Are they prepared to see their assets loose value? 73% percent own only one investment property anyway. What effect will limiting it have? Those who use negative gearing include 22.6% of police officers, 19.2% of ambulance officers and paramedics, and 18.9% of train and tram drivers. What about those battlers? What about all the tradesmen, and other peripheral jobs who rely on landlords using NG to pay for their services?

What really needs to happen is some type of measure to help skew the ownership level. Reducing prices is a dangerous game, so is changing NG, so they need to help people pay for their own homes and bringing the first home buyer into competition with the investor. You need to charge the investor to pay for the first home buyer therefore reducing the amount of investors and increasing the first home buyer in the market.
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Old Apr 26th 2016, 12:03 pm   #51
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Default Re: Bye bye Liberal Government..... will you ever learn.

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Originally Posted by GarryP View Post
To whom?

Concessions to the far right tendency in his own party would just alienate the voters even more. There's nothing they want that the Labor voters would accept.

Concessions to the more centralist, conservative middle (to gain voters) will infuriate the far right tendency, and Abbott won't keep his dumb mouth shut.

Tax cuts are ruled out, and tax raises also - which will probably mean the loss of the AAA rating before the election. So he can't really concede to the business lobby either.

The only option I can see is Murdoch. It's been noticeable that the murdoch chorus hasn't been singing sweetly for Turnbull, so what could he do that would get the geriatric Palpatine figure to lie for him, like he lied for Abbott?
Well the ABC and the 7:30 report did Turnbull a great favour tonight.

He explained his stance on NG very nicely and shot Labour down beautifully. He failed to give a solution to the growing generational home ownership problem, but neither have Labour.

Solution still awaits.
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Old Apr 26th 2016, 12:35 pm   #52
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Default Re: Bye bye Liberal Government..... will you ever learn.

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Well the ABC and the 7:30 report did Turnbull a great favour tonight.

He explained his stance on NG very nicely and shot Labour down beautifully. He failed to give a solution to the growing generational home ownership problem, but neither have Labour.

Solution still awaits.
Must have watched a different interview - since I saw him get gutted by statistics of just who benefits from most of it (not your middle class mom and pop)

I particularly think the point that other parts of the world don't have negative gearing and still have property speculators, property portfolios etc. was particularly telling.

And here is the murdoch press saying roughly the same thing about the interview :

http://www.news.com.au/national/poli...81782b62892520

Very noticeable that they are not at home to Mr Nice Murdoch as far as Turnbull is concerned.

Eventually someone it going to end up holding the can for the daft mess they got themselves into - and the best chance is going to be to grandfather and limit it in future, so that it dies gradually.

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Old Apr 26th 2016, 1:00 pm   #53
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Default Re: Bye bye Liberal Government..... will you ever learn.

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Must have watched a different interview - since I saw him get gutted by statistics of just who benefits from most of it (not your middle class mom and pop)

I particularly think the point that other parts of the world don't have negative gearing and still have property speculators, property portfolios etc. was particularly telling.

And here is the murdoch press saying roughly the same thing about the interview :

Federal Budget 2016: Malcolm Turnbull blog defends negative gearing decision

Very noticeable that they are not at home to Mr Nice Murdoch as far as Turnbull is concerned.

Eventually someone it going to end up holding the can for the daft mess they got themselves into - and the best chance is going to be to grandfather and limit it in future, so that it dies gradually.
I think her cleary demonstrated who benefits. Did you ignore the facts again? Don't you like public servants?

For me you could kill NG for all I personally care. I don't have an investment property and I don't own a property so I have no care for property prices continuing to rise.

What about you Garry? Do you own? Do you care if your property drops in value?
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Old Apr 27th 2016, 12:38 am   #54
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Default Re: Bye bye Liberal Government..... will you ever learn.

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What about you Garry? Do you own? Do you care if your property drops in value?
For the lack of comment, lets assume Garry does, and he doesn't want to see the value of his prime asset drop for the sake of some first home buyers.

It really only only leaves people like Garry 2 options. Vote Libs or vote Green.

Now considering Australian home ownership is at around 60% lets assume on voting day the social democrats have a choice - lose value in my prime asset or not.

We know social democrats are hypocrites and its all about me me me, this puts Labour in a very very tough position.

If the election is going to be all about Negative Gearing, it looks like the Libs have the numbers and the Greens are going to take a lot from Labour.
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Old Apr 27th 2016, 2:07 am   #55
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Default Re: Bye bye Liberal Government..... will you ever learn.

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For the lack of comment, lets assume Garry does, and he doesn't want to see the value of his prime asset drop for the sake of some first home buyers.
Stop trying to put words in my mouth - I don't reply both because my personal affairs aren't your concern, and because I'm actively avoiding getting suckered into pointless arguments where facts will get ignored for ideology. You've tried to push an idea that NG is somehow a hot, voting winning, tactic for Turnbull - so I just laid down some facts on how well it's (not) being received. The only interesting thing is that the murdoch press is against him - which means unless that budget contains something pretty unexpected and spectacular, he's going to get cooked. His 'do nothing' policy standpoint isn't going to win him the election.
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Old Apr 27th 2016, 3:03 am   #56
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Default Re: Bye bye Liberal Government..... will you ever learn.

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Stop trying to put words in my mouth - I don't reply both because my personal affairs aren't your concern, and because I'm actively avoiding getting suckered into pointless arguments where facts will get ignored for ideology. You've tried to push an idea that NG is somehow a hot, voting winning, tactic for Turnbull - so I just laid down some facts on how well it's (not) being received. The only interesting thing is that the murdoch press is against him - which means unless that budget contains something pretty unexpected and spectacular, he's going to get cooked. His 'do nothing' policy standpoint isn't going to win him the election.
To be cooked, most Australian home owners would need to tick "ALP" on their ballot forms knowing the there is a very good chance their property will drop in value.

Do you think that's going to happen?
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Old Apr 27th 2016, 3:30 am   #57
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Default Re: Bye bye Liberal Government..... will you ever learn.

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TA was a good PM but because a lot of Australian voters are in denial and unable to accept reality, he couldn't win a 2nd term

Turnbull is an ok alternative and he'll get this one - the electorate know that Shorten would be a CFMEU inspired disaster


Well no Abbott was a disaster, Turnbull now has been forced to comply to the ruling hard right neoliberal faction of the once aptly named Liberal Party.


Turf out the hard core brigade and return to traditional Liberal policy. Little difference between the two extremes of either party and the electorate are waking up to the fact. Neither have the nation in mind and serve self interest.
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Old Apr 27th 2016, 3:35 am   #58
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Default Re: Bye bye Liberal Government..... will you ever learn.

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To be cooked, most Australian home owners would need to tick "ALP" on their ballot forms knowing the there is a very good chance their property will drop in value.

Do you think that's going to happen?
Well those that purchased at the height of the boom, taking out a massive loan to do so, encouraged by lenders to do so, I'm afraid will lose out.


The growing number of Australians unable to purchase due to speculators, excessive housing inflation and low interest rates will become an unstoppable force at some point.


The 90% subsidising the 10% NG are asking the right questions. Just a shame the present shoddy government found it necessary to do a back flip on doing the necessary.
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Old Apr 27th 2016, 3:42 am   #59
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Default Re: Bye bye Liberal Government..... will you ever learn.

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Originally Posted by Beoz View Post
For the lack of comment, lets assume Garry does, and he doesn't want to see the value of his prime asset drop for the sake of some first home buyers.

It really only only leaves people like Garry 2 options. Vote Libs or vote Green.

Now considering Australian home ownership is at around 60% lets assume on voting day the social democrats have a choice - lose value in my prime asset or not.

We know social democrats are hypocrites and its all about me me me, this puts Labour in a very very tough position.

If the election is going to be all about Negative Gearing, it looks like the Libs have the numbers and the Greens are going to take a lot from Labour.


I'd assume any number of home owners that got in prior to the boom, and long before have made a few hundred per cent on their initial purchase and could care less if a reduction in house prices returned Australia to a more equitable nation, where their kids stood a chance to purchase.


Those consumed by greed will just have to suck it up, I'm afraid. WE know the neo libs care little beyond shellfish self interest and are increasingly on the nose with their failed economic policy.
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Old Apr 27th 2016, 3:47 am   #60
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Default Re: Bye bye Liberal Government..... will you ever learn.

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Originally Posted by GarryP View Post
Must have watched a different interview - since I saw him get gutted by statistics of just who benefits from most of it (not your middle class mom and pop)

I particularly think the point that other parts of the world don't have negative gearing and still have property speculators, property portfolios etc. was particularly telling.

And here is the murdoch press saying roughly the same thing about the interview :

Federal Budget 2016: Malcolm Turnbull blog defends negative gearing decision

Very noticeable that they are not at home to Mr Nice Murdoch as far as Turnbull is concerned.

Eventually someone it going to end up holding the can for the daft mess they got themselves into - and the best chance is going to be to grandfather and limit it in future, so that it dies gradually.


She should have asked why he and the duff job Treasurer changed their tune.
Turnbull was let off far too easily. He failed to answer the relevant questions and was not brought to task.
We may expect better of the ABC to hold government to greater account.
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