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Old Apr 24th 2016, 5:38 am   #31
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Default Re: Bye bye Liberal Government..... will you ever learn.

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Originally Posted by ozzieeagle View Post
The most advanced countries in the world currently are all socialist....Democratic Socialist that is... and that's your Scandinavians. Call a Dane a Swede and vice versa and you'll find out how much they love their individual countries. If anything Australia is aspring to become as forward thinking as them... It's on the right track.

As for independant thinking and a sense of self re the union movement, look up the Eureka Stockade, which is the birth place of unionism in Australia..in Victoria of course.

That's what this flag is all about... As seen above all CFMEU sites across the country.

http://www.smh.com.au/content/dam/im...0534749246.jpg

Not sure this will help as you cant help those with closed minds. But I've tried.

The spirit of Eureka will win this election for the workers.


Quite probably a reason why Danes have yet again ben voted happiest people in the world. Having worked in Denmark, along with three other European countries what is very noticeable compared to Australia , is far greater certainty. Regulations don't tend to change every other year. People have a pension system they can still depend on although age levels to receive such a payment is increasing.


Australia following the rest of the Anglo world is for declining welfare nets while over compensating the rich and corporations.


Even autocratic Singapore, had the nous to provide affordable housing to all their citizens in a country that became unaffordable to buy for most people.
Australia on the other hand is increasingly leaving more people to own devises or with at best minimal support.
We are a very conservative country that doesn't tend to protest too loudly and accept far too readily associated policy accompanying that stance.
The French would be out in the streets refusing to go under.


I'd suggest owning to the nature of the community it is far too soon to bid adieu to such complacency or to an end to people's thoughts that a dramatic change is in order. Something Labor would likely prove wanting in filling.
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Old Apr 24th 2016, 10:09 pm   #32
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Default Re: Bye bye Liberal Government..... will you ever learn.

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Originally Posted by the troubadour View Post
I'd prefer a government like that as well. A government prepared to tackle the corporates and go after the tax rightly due, a government prepared to tackle the housing crisis in Australia, a government not afraid to bring the top end of town into line.

A government that rules for all in other words and not a few.
More scare mongering once again ignoring the fact that corporates do pay their requirement of tax and any tax dodging is rightfully exposed by the ATO.

On housing, is there a crisis? Another scare tactic? Whilst negative gearing itself is a bad tax relief (you shouldn't be rewarded for making a loss on your investments) its in place and you can't remove it without bad ramifications. Thankfully the Libs have pulled in the short sighted ideas of the ALP.

NG helps the poor and middle wealth holders. It helps these people get on the property ladder and helps these people maintain an investment property. It doesn't help the wealthy. The wealthy don't use loans to service loss making investments.

This is where the ALP have it all wrong. They would just be hurting their own.

What the government should be doing is fleecing the foreign investor, hiking stamp duty or another tax for that group alone, and passing that back to the first home buyer. If you want to buy Australian, and the demand is there, which it is, you pay. The governments job is to raise revenue ..... its right there.

I think you a being fed a bunch of lies by your soon to be defunct ALP.
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Old Apr 25th 2016, 7:16 am   #33
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Default Re: Bye bye Liberal Government..... will you ever learn.

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This is where the ALP have it all wrong. They would just be hurting their own.

What the government should be doing is fleecing the foreign investor, hiking stamp duty or another tax for that group alone, and passing that back to the first home buyer. If you want to buy Australian, and the demand is there, which it is, you pay. The governments job is to raise revenue ..... its right there.

I think you a being fed a bunch of lies by your soon to be defunct ALP.
Nocookies | The Australian

...as will be implemented by the whatever hating allegedly socialist Andrews Labor govt in Victoria. However I am fairly sure the opposition and certainly real estate industry will be opposed. If it impacts the capital growth of 'mum & dad' investors it makes their already loss making investment property less viable.
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Old Apr 25th 2016, 7:56 am   #34
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Default Re: Bye bye Liberal Government..... will you ever learn.

LNP have got it wrong again. I would think most "mum and dad" investors are more concerned about the futures of their children and grandchildren than of their own self-enrichment. It's time to substantially tax foreign-based property investors and to phase out negative gearing.
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Old Apr 25th 2016, 8:04 am   #35
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Default Re: Bye bye Liberal Government..... will you ever learn.

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More scare mongering once again ignoring the fact that corporates do pay their requirement of tax and any tax dodging is rightfully exposed by the ATO.

On housing, is there a crisis? Another scare tactic? Whilst negative gearing itself is a bad tax relief (you shouldn't be rewarded for making a loss on your investments) its in place and you can't remove it without bad ramifications. Thankfully the Libs have pulled in the short sighted ideas of the ALP.

NG helps the poor and middle wealth holders. It helps these people get on the property ladder and helps these people maintain an investment property. It doesn't help the wealthy. The wealthy don't use loans to service loss making investments.

This is where the ALP have it all wrong. They would just be hurting their own.

What the government should be doing is fleecing the foreign investor, hiking stamp duty or another tax for that group alone, and passing that back to the first home buyer. If you want to buy Australian, and the demand is there, which it is, you pay. The governments job is to raise revenue ..... its right there.

I think you a being fed a bunch of lies by your soon to be defunct ALP.


No scare mongering at all. Corporates do not pay their fair share as is well recognised. Yet they demand lower business tax on one hand but greater infrastructure on the other.


NG favours the wealthier investors as shown in recent figures with the Australian housing market dominated by investors and first home buyers at record lows.
A disaster in the making especially in the main population centres. What is astounding is that you and fellow travellers continue to support the ridiculous situation we find ourselves as a nation in and the denial in quarters that we have a problem of magnitude.


It doesn't look like even overseas buyers, now going cool on the Sydney market and showing interest in Brisbane will save the day of maintaining over inflated house prices.


What the government certainly shouldn't be doing is giving money to first home buyers which is a complete turkey, only increasing prices at the bottom.
They should certainly be taxing empty apartments and houses of foreign investors though left empty by choice and arrest the laundering of foreign funds into the Australian housing market.
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Old Apr 25th 2016, 8:10 am   #36
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Default Re: Bye bye Liberal Government..... will you ever learn.

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LNP have got it wrong again. I would think most "mum and dad" investors are more concerned about the futures of their children and grandchildren than of their own self-enrichment. It's time to substantially tax foreign-based property investors and to phase out negative gearing.
It is indeed but sadly we are not quite at the tipping point yet. Still more gaining in per cent terms from excessive housing inflation that those knocked out permanently at current levels. The equation will change though and a correction will not be a pretty sight but necessary for the well being of the nation. Hell of a price to pay due to cheap money. Raise interest rates and shake out some of the poncy speculators. Reward savers and get back to fundamentals.
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Old Apr 25th 2016, 8:16 am   #37
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Default Re: Bye bye Liberal Government..... will you ever learn.

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Nocookies | The Australian

...as will be implemented by the whatever hating allegedly socialist Andrews Labor govt in Victoria. However I am fairly sure the opposition and certainly real estate industry will be opposed. If it impacts the capital growth of 'mum & dad' investors it makes their already loss making investment property less viable.
Be assured the so called Libs/Real Estate industry/Bankers/ and assorted vested interests making piles with the present unsubstantial system in place will cry foul but who cares?
The people deserve and will in time demand better. I think the crop of thirty year olds plus, still living at home brings home the point to many of the older generations.
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Old Apr 25th 2016, 10:01 am   #38
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Default Re: Bye bye Liberal Government..... will you ever learn.

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Nocookies | The Australian

...as will be implemented by the whatever hating allegedly socialist Andrews Labor govt in Victoria. However I am fairly sure the opposition and certainly real estate industry will be opposed. If it impacts the capital growth of 'mum & dad' investors it makes their already loss making investment property less viable.
I can't read your article. No matter what I try to circumvent the fee, its not happening.
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Old Apr 25th 2016, 10:24 am   #39
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Default Re: Bye bye Liberal Government..... will you ever learn.

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No scare mongering at all. Corporates do not pay their fair share as is well recognised. Yet they demand lower business tax on one hand but greater infrastructure on the other.
Really. Where is this demand? Governments demand lower business tax to keep competitive. Businesses don't care. They just take their business to the lowest bidder.

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NG favours the wealthier investors as shown in recent figures with the Australian housing market dominated by investors and first home buyers at record lows.
A disaster in the making especially in the main population centres. What is astounding is that you and fellow travellers continue to support the ridiculous situation we find ourselves as a nation in and the denial in quarters that we have a problem of magnitude.
You would like NG to favour the wealthy so you can have a typically resentful moan, but it actually assists the average investor and the young investor. There may be a few manufactured stats on a few left wing publications, but they admit themselves, they don't really know.

As I said to you earlier, the wealthy don't go for a Negative G, they go for a Positive G. It makes business sense.

In bold, where did I say that? You just made that up and can't be taken seriously again.

I think you'll find I have said before the current state is worrying. I have said there is going to be a large ownership gap. I don't like NG but I also recognise a dramatic transform is can create dramatic disasters.

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It doesn't look like even overseas buyers, now going cool on the Sydney market and showing interest in Brisbane will save the day of maintaining over inflated house prices.
Smart move. Why invest somewhere that is retracting?

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Originally Posted by the troubadour View Post
What the government certainly shouldn't be doing is giving money to first home buyers which is a complete turkey, only increasing prices at the bottom.
They should certainly be taxing empty apartments and houses of foreign investors though left empty by choice and arrest the laundering of foreign funds into the Australian housing market.
We agree. Your reason is resentment. That's where we don't.

Governments are there to make money with our trading partners. That includes foreign investors. That said, must be careful not to kill stuff in the process. Some areas of new building zones in Sydney are already seeing a 20% drop in value. This can discourage new building which screws the construction industry. Great when things a booming though.

FWIW I have no vested interest here. I have never owned property.

How's that super fund of yours looking? Have you dug out your tax perks yet?
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Old Apr 26th 2016, 3:56 am   #40
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Default Re: Bye bye Liberal Government..... will you ever learn.

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Really. Where is this demand? Governments demand lower business tax to keep competitive. Businesses don't care. They just take their business to the lowest bidder.



You would like NG to favour the wealthy so you can have a typically resentful moan, but it actually assists the average investor and the young investor. There may be a few manufactured stats on a few left wing publications, but they admit themselves, they don't really know.

As I said to you earlier, the wealthy don't go for a Negative G, they go for a Positive G. It makes business sense.

In bold, where did I say that? You just made that up and can't be taken seriously again.

I think you'll find I have said before the current state is worrying. I have said there is going to be a large ownership gap. I don't like NG but I also recognise a dramatic transform is can create dramatic disasters.



Smart move. Why invest somewhere that is retracting?



We agree. Your reason is resentment. That's where we don't.

Governments are there to make money with our trading partners. That includes foreign investors. That said, must be careful not to kill stuff in the process. Some areas of new building zones in Sydney are already seeing a 20% drop in value. This can discourage new building which screws the construction industry. Great when things a booming though.

FWIW I have no vested interest here. I have never owned property.

How's that super fund of yours looking? Have you dug out your tax perks yet?
There is no argument NG favours more the rich by its very nature, which is why one half of the gains made from this dreadful tax dodge are in the top 10% of earners.


Not forgetting the political elite of course, where the top six property owners among the Coalition MP's own 99 properties between them.
Little wonder there is little ticker to tackle the subject on the government side and no wonder they condemn Labor's plan at reform.


The continued cutting of services to the middle class and poor has not gone unnoticed and just face it neoliberal policy is well and truly on the nose.


The resentment being, among most clear thinking people , is how ideology of recent years (probably since the Howard/Costello tax and super concessions followed by the GFC and cheap money) has resulted in the situation we now find ourselves in.


Where is the demand you ask? I think the shelving of the first Abbott/Hockey budget will point you in the right direction.
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Old Apr 26th 2016, 3:59 am   #41
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Default Re: Bye bye Liberal Government..... will you ever learn.

The fact that the Australian housing market is at all time lows for First Home Buyers while investors dominate speaks volumes of a failed policy.


A policy that will impact business and desirability as a country to live in.
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Old Apr 26th 2016, 4:46 am   #42
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Default Re: Bye bye Liberal Government..... will you ever learn.

Well at least you finally admit your resentment - talking about your own demons helps with the healing process. How about those tax dodging retirement assets of yours?

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There is no argument NG favours more the rich by its very nature, which is why one half of the gains made from this dreadful tax dodge are in the top 10% of earners.
There is every point in arguing your claim. Why make a loss on an investment when you don't have to? NG helps the non wealthy more than it does the wealthy. You keep ignoring it. Why?

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Not forgetting the political elite of course, where the top six property owners among the Coalition MP's own 99 properties between them.
Little wonder there is little ticker to tackle the subject on the government side and no wonder they condemn Labor's plan at reform.
Take a trip down memory lane and ask this question of your Keating/Hawke government.

Why would you blame the rules? You created them.

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The continued cutting of services to the middle class and poor has not gone unnoticed and just face it neoliberal policy is well and truly on the nose.

The resentment being, among most clear thinking people , is how ideology of recent years (probably since the Howard/Costello tax and super concessions followed by the GFC and cheap money) has resulted in the situation we now find ourselves in.

Where is the demand you ask? I think the shelving of the first Abbott/Hockey budget will point you in the right direction.

Might be a little hard for the average Joe to digest, probably why you don't hear it on TV, but here is the detailed rebuttal from the Libs.

Clearing up some misconceptions about Negative Gearing | Malcolm Turnbull MP

As I have said, NG rewards your policeman, teacher and every other average Joe for poor investments. While it would be nice to kill off, you just can't without ramifications.
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Old Apr 26th 2016, 6:29 am   #43
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Default Re: Bye bye Liberal Government..... will you ever learn.

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Well at least you finally admit your resentment - talking about your own demons helps with the healing process. How about those tax dodging retirement assets of yours?



There is every point in arguing your claim. Why make a loss on an investment when you don't have to? NG helps the non wealthy more than it does the wealthy. You keep ignoring it. Why?



Take a trip down memory lane and ask this question of your Keating/Hawke government.

Why would you blame the rules? You created them.




Might be a little hard for the average Joe to digest, probably why you don't hear it on TV, but here is the detailed rebuttal from the Libs.

Clearing up some misconceptions about Negative Gearing | Malcolm Turnbull MP

As I have said, NG rewards your policeman, teacher and every other average Joe for poor investments. While it would be nice to kill off, you just can't without ramifications.


Don't quote at me Turnbull's attempt to maintain status quo in an obvious flawed and failed policy. You could at least took to heart Hockey's last passing comment prior to opting out of politics. Which I'm sure you will recall.


I can only suppose you are in the business of dodgy loans or something along those lines to press so hard to maintain a failed and expensive policy that is impacting and will continue to do so on this nation.


Turnbull has obviously been got at as his views have moved hard right on this matter although he must be fully aware the harm it is creating/created.


I'd really love to know why you consider it good policy having so much unproductive wealth tied up in housing and the advantage of having the banks so exposed to the real estate industry?


Really beggars belief. A rise in international interest rates will hammer the banks to no end with expensive borrowing.


As I have said NG benefits the top 10% far more. Multiple dwellings inflate the cost of housing to people that actually want a home to live in.
In fact it puts a basic essential out of reach of an ever growing per cent of the population while enslaving others with some of the most expensive real estate in the world.


Just how many will survive come the interest rate hike in coming years is anybody's business.
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Old Apr 26th 2016, 6:41 am   #44
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Default Re: Bye bye Liberal Government..... will you ever learn.

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Don't quote at me Turnbull's attempt to maintain status quo in an obvious flawed and failed policy. You could at least took to heart Hockey's last passing comment prior to opting out of politics. Which I'm sure you will recall.
Why .... does it prove your case wrong

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I can only suppose you are in the business of dodgy loans or something along those lines to press so hard to maintain a failed and expensive policy that is impacting and will continue to do so on this nation.
Nope. I hear and understand that tampering with negative gearing will have impacts. You can't just look at it from a one eyed point of view. It will have ramifications everywhere.

There are more defence force personnel who use negative gearing than surgeons, judges, anaesthetists and psychiatrists combined. There is 25 times the number of nurses, defence force personnel and emergency service workers combined who use negative gearing compared with surgeons, anaesthetists and judges combined.

The public servants are the very people you are trying to protect.

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Turnbull has obviously been got at as his views have moved hard right on this matter although he must be fully aware the harm it is creating/created.


I'd really love to know why you consider it good policy having so much unproductive wealth tied up in housing and the advantage of having the banks so exposed to the real estate industry?
I've told you before I don't believe in negative gearing and you are absolutely right. Its dangerous to have so much debt and wealth tied to one industry. Do you have a solution that won't upset your mates in the public service - the biggest abusers of negative gearing?

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Really beggars belief. A rise in international interest rates will hammer the banks to no end with expensive borrowing.


As I have said NG benefits the top 10% far more. Multiple dwellings inflate the cost of housing to people that actually want a home to live in.
In fact it puts a basic essential out of reach of an ever growing per cent of the population while enslaving others with some of the most expensive real estate in the world.


Just how many will survive come the interest rate hike in coming years is anybody's business.
More rubbish

How's your retirement fund tax avoidance strategy going?

Lots of avoidance on that topic?
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Old Apr 26th 2016, 7:04 am   #45
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Default Re: Bye bye Liberal Government..... will you ever learn.

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Why .... does it prove your case wrong
Well there's a lot of selective quoting of statistics going on...and a lot of quoting of individual numbers rather than looking at the overall impact.

You've stated a couple of times that the highest income earners don't negatively gear, but the ABS says otherwise. Every income group from $45k to $500k+ who holds investment property has at least 65% who are negatively geared. Yes, 65% of landlords in the 500k+ income bracket are negatively geared. 68% in the 250k to 500k bracket. The highest is 73% in the $60k to $80k. Slightly higher, but hardly a dramatically different investment strategy.

And the overall impact is that half (40-50%) of the cost of NG is attributed to the top 10% of earners. I don't expect the 'mum and dad battlers' are in that group? Surely that fact in itself means that the emotional arguments about upsetting front line workers is a diversion?

While you've said many times you are opposed to NG you seem to be proposing a do nothing strategy? Why not draw a line under it from a certain date? Why not limit NG to a single investment property after a certain date? Why not limit it to new builds like Labor's idea?

Data, before you ask. Now I get it, this is a link from the ABC...but the data comes from the ABS or RBA, click the links under the charts to get to it.
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