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Old Jun 28th 2017, 10:17 am   #76
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Default Re: Questions, questions - Melbourne

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Originally Posted by GarryP View Post
Well, yes it is relevant, and because it explains why I have no time for it.

The 'noble savage' was a trope that arose originally from religion - suggesting that various 'aboriginal' types were closer to the garden of eden, living a more natural life, in touch with the natural cycles, etc. Sound like anything you still hear today?

That then transitioned over a period of time into racist idea that they were children, unable to take care of themselves, and when violence arose, well it was 'evil' and needed to get stamped out in typically religious fashion.

What the 'noble savage' does is setup a group not to a standard and expectation that says equality - it sets them apart, and measures them against some idealised eden.

And saying that that 'noble savage' idea of aboriginal culture is somehow the culture of modern day australia is not only a lie, it also sets up for the problems that arise when reality and myth meet - and people get that dissonance that their idea of myth and 'culture' that they have appropriated aren't real.
You're the only one banging on about 'the noble savage', Garry. However, it may or may not surprise you to know that I agree with much of your synopsis of cultural appropriation.

Still doesn't negate the fact that Australia's history didn't begin with European colonisation though!
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Old Jun 28th 2017, 11:49 am   #77
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Default Re: Questions, questions - Melbourne

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Originally Posted by GarryP View Post
As I said, basically most of it.

And you are living in a fantasy land if you think somewhere like Prahran is a nicer environment (tis a hole in my estimation). You are right about 2 completely different areas though...
Prahran has some great areas and housing. Established avenues and trees. Most people won't recognise any innate superiority of the W over the established E. You're a puzzle, Garry.
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Old Jun 28th 2017, 11:54 am   #78
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Default Re: Questions, questions - Melbourne

The discussion about Aboriginal culture etc has become political rather than anthropological (I mean in society, not in this forum).

As someone earlier noted - there are hundreds of tribes and Aboriginal languages across Australia. "Aboriginals" are not a unified bloc - they are/were foreign to each other.

However they are treated as a unified bloc, because of what I call "unconscious Euro-centrism," which is practised by those who would (ironically) be the most horrified to be called Euro-centric.

Case in point: Which tribe invented the boomerang? They were not used universally across Australia, and neither were didgeridoos. Tools used were highly habitat- and climate-specific. I stayed with an Aboriginal artist up north last year who was carving out and selling elaborate boomerangs - he was very happy to explain to me (which I later confirmed researching it when I got home) how his tribe up north never used them, they were used by tribes in (if I remember) Queensland.

So, who is going to go and accuse this guy - and all the other Aboriginal artists who make boomerangs - of cultural appropriation, because he is not from one of those tribes in Queensland that made or used them?

It will of course never happen.
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Old Jun 28th 2017, 10:10 pm   #79
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Default Re: Questions, questions - Melbourne

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Originally Posted by carcajou View Post
The discussion about Aboriginal culture etc has become political rather than anthropological (I mean in society, not in this forum).

As someone earlier noted - there are hundreds of tribes and Aboriginal languages across Australia. "Aboriginals" are not a unified bloc - they are/were foreign to each other.

However they are treated as a unified bloc, because of what I call "unconscious Euro-centrism," which is practised by those who would (ironically) be the most horrified to be called Euro-centric.

Case in point: Which tribe invented the boomerang? They were not used universally across Australia, and neither were didgeridoos. Tools used were highly habitat- and climate-specific. I stayed with an Aboriginal artist up north last year who was carving out and selling elaborate boomerangs - he was very happy to explain to me (which I later confirmed researching it when I got home) how his tribe up north never used them, they were used by tribes in (if I remember) Queensland.

So, who is going to go and accuse this guy - and all the other Aboriginal artists who make boomerangs - of cultural appropriation, because he is not from one of those tribes in Queensland that made or used them?

It will of course never happen.
We can all appropriate and use ideas. Europeans were coping each other. All part of trade.
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Old Jun 29th 2017, 1:06 am   #80
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Default Re: Questions, questions - Melbourne

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Originally Posted by spouse of scouse View Post
You're the only one banging on about 'the noble savage', Garry. However, it may or may not surprise you to know that I agree with much of your synopsis of cultural appropriation.
Well, that's a bit of a movement, although I think you missed the point quite a bit. 'Noble savage' overlaps with, but isn't cultural appropriation. Cultural appropriation doesn't explain the stolen generation.

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Still doesn't negate the fact that Australia's history didn't begin with European colonisation though!
Australia, as a country and culture that you know, did start two centuries back . What it replaced might as well be a chocolate box picture.

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Prahran has some great areas and housing. Established avenues and trees. Most people won't recognise any innate superiority of the W over the established E. You're a puzzle, Garry.
'some' .... well maybe you are adjusting.

See my view is that this :

https://www.google.com.au/maps/place...ce8e0?hl=en-AU

isn't superior to this :

https://www.google.com.au/maps/place...045675218cdc90

particularly when you take into account what your budget will actually get you.

This:

37 Earl Street Prahran Vic 3181 - House for Rent #421334766 - realestate.com.au

vs this

38 Shaftsbury Boulevard Point Cook Vic 3030 - House for Rent #421382442 - realestate.com.au

Strange that, ain't it?
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Old Jun 29th 2017, 3:41 am   #81
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Default Re: Questions, questions - Melbourne

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Originally Posted by GarryP View Post
Well, that's a bit of a movement, although I think you missed the point quite a bit. 'Noble savage' overlaps with, but isn't cultural appropriation. Cultural appropriation doesn't explain the stolen generation.



Australia, as a country and culture that you know, did start two centuries back . What it replaced might as well be a chocolate box picture.



'some' .... well maybe you are adjusting.

See my view is that this :

https://www.google.com.au/maps/place...ce8e0?hl=en-AU

isn't superior to this :

https://www.google.com.au/maps/place...045675218cdc90

particularly when you take into account what your budget will actually get you.

This:

37 Earl Street Prahran Vic 3181 - House for Rent #421334766 - realestate.com.au

vs this

38 Shaftsbury Boulevard Point Cook Vic 3030 - House for Rent #421382442 - realestate.com.au

Strange that, ain't it?

In all seriousness I think you'll would find most Melburnians born and bred would prefer the Prahran option. Housing prices bear this seemingly hard to swallow fact out.


When I see those outer estate pictures, I anticipate acute summer dryness, stark brown vistas and tumble weed not to mention massive soul sapping traffic jams as people attempt to find there way back to civilisationn. Not to mention bogans doing burnouts and doughnuts at 3AM.


Those outer estates are for new migrants, and first home buyers.

I for one would gladly take the Prahran rental over the outer rental.
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Old Jun 29th 2017, 4:05 am   #82
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Default Re: Questions, questions - Melbourne

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In all seriousness I think you'll would find most Melburnians born and bred would prefer the Prahran option.
Err, that's what I said at the beginning. Point is, the reality and the prejudice have a significant gap - which gives people like the OP who aren't infected with it the chance to get better for less.

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Originally Posted by ozzieeagle View Post
I anticipate acute summer dryness, stark brown vistas and tumble weed
Which really says more about you than it does about those green parks and conservation areas that estate builders are required to put into new estates - quite a lot more than you will find in the inner east...

And while we are on feel, have you notice that most of the inner east have high unfriendly front walls and fences, in contrast to the more open design of the newer suburbs?

I will agree that traffic needs improvement as infrastructure hasn't kept up with the progress of building - but it is improving and the eastern suburbs are already totally gummed up, and are even worse for being able to cope with the normal level of cars (see all of them parked down either side of the narrow street?)
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Old Jun 29th 2017, 4:08 am   #83
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Default Re: Questions, questions - Melbourne

Unless I am in the wrong thread, the OP had a large family and needed a home with 4 bedrooms and car parking for one or two cars.

That would cost a bloody fortune to rent in any inner city trendy suburb. Heaps of those little cottages dont even have parking off road, some dont even have a permit.
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Old Jun 29th 2017, 4:59 am   #84
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Default Re: Questions, questions - Melbourne

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Unless I am in the wrong thread, the OP had a large family and needed a home with 4 bedrooms and car parking for one or two cars.

That would cost a bloody fortune to rent in any inner city trendy suburb. Heaps of those little cottages dont even have parking off road, some dont even have a permit.
Reason I posted is to give feedback on how Melburnians see things. Which may or may not be relevant, although your paragraph re parking probably is.

I think this thread is illustrating how multi faceted Melbourne is.
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Old Jun 29th 2017, 5:23 am   #85
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Default Re: Questions, questions - Melbourne

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Originally Posted by jad n rich View Post
Unless I am in the wrong thread, the OP had a large family and needed a home with 4 bedrooms and car parking for one or two cars.

That would cost a bloody fortune to rent in any inner city trendy suburb. Heaps of those little cottages dont even have parking off road, some dont even have a permit.
Yes, but there are plenty of more establish suburbs that are a hell of a lot better than living out west.

2/7 Melinga Crescent Chadstone Vic 3148 - Townhouse for Rent #410898699 - realestate.com.au

24 Bethell Street Ormond Vic 3204 - House for Rent #421261790 - realestate.com.au
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Old Jun 29th 2017, 5:52 am   #86
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Default Re: Questions, questions - Melbourne

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Well, for a start those are further out than the 'inner east' we were talking about. And they are more expensive ($680 & $630), and. taking the second one, is about 120m2 (tiny), a 3 bed, which is smaller than even the cheapest 4 bed you'll find in the west (180m2). Big garden though.

So, all in all, about twice as expensive.

Now, if you are happy with twice as much, well, knock yourself out. Doesn't really make sense to me. And a few others I think, since it appears that second one has cut it's advertised rent (started at $700) - couldn't find any takers?

Here's the equivalent in the west, on the lakes ; 4 Watersedge cove Sanctuary Lakes Vic 3030 - House for Rent #417231994 - realestate.com.au
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Old Jun 29th 2017, 5:58 am   #87
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Default Re: Questions, questions - Melbourne

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Plus the $20k+ per annum per child for secondary schooling, unless you want you kids to end up as tradies or in a gang.
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Old Jun 29th 2017, 6:12 am   #88
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Default Re: Questions, questions - Melbourne

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Plus the $20k+ per annum per child for secondary schooling, unless you want you kids to end up as tradies or in a gang.
Are the state schools bad in this area? It looks gorgeous but of course hard to tell in pictures.
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Old Jun 29th 2017, 6:22 am   #89
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Default Re: Questions, questions - Melbourne

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Are the state schools bad in this area? It looks gorgeous but of course hard to tell in pictures.
Thats another thing that is very different to the UK here in Aus.... The worst schools generally speaking are in Country towns and not in the big Cities, there are exceptions of course but that's the way it usually runs in Aus.

I wouldn't know whether the schools down that way are considered bad or not, but I've not heard any stand out negatives.


Werribee which isn't that far away had a really bad reputation at one stage, but that generational lot seem to have gone past that stage now. Now it's Tarneit... So far enough away seemingly not to influence that direct area.
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Old Jun 29th 2017, 6:28 am   #90
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Default Re: Questions, questions - Melbourne

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Are the state schools bad in this area? It looks gorgeous but of course hard to tell in pictures.
Yes, in Point Cook the only zoned public secondary school (Point Cook Senior Secondary College) is very poor. They are not particularly academic focused and even have schemes for studying trades. Kids are very scruffy, often found smoking and loitering around the town centre, including a few fights in which police have had to be called. The local retailers are not happy about their behaviour.

Only other options are to apply out of zone for better public schools closer in - like Maribyrnong, Williamstown etc - but no guarantee of acceptance and the commute in the mornings is horrible.

Then you have private schooling options, there is a Catholic school in Point Cook and a very good Grammar school (Westbourne) close by. But that is getting very popular now due to the boom in the population and may be becoming selective entry.
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