jacknscoob

Hi Guys

I live in Oz, however I am going to have to deal with a fraud issue relating to some UK shares by a person who lives in the UK. (The shares were falsely signed over to someone when they didnt legally belong to them)

I am visiting the UK in May this year. Should I:
- wait til May and get a UK solicitor?
- use an Oz solicitor now?
- use a UK solicitor now?

Alot of it can be done by email and phone. However, I suppose because it will be dealing with UK law, a UK solicitor does make sense. Any ideas???

Thanks in advance

Pollyana

If you use an Aussie solicitor I'd suggest getting one familiar with UK law as its UK law which will deal with it.

Bermudashorts

As it will go to a UK court, a UK solicitor looks like it would make sense.

Swerv-o

Sounds like it could be a deception - have you contacted the police in the first instance?


S

jacknscoob

Hiya, yeah I am not sure what it is, fraud, theft, deception. In a nut shell it is this:

• Mr + Mrs X - had joint shares in UK
• Mr + Mrs X divorced in 2010 - settlement stated that all shares go to Mr X
• Mr X died early 2015 and had never got round to changing the joint ownership status to sole
• (Executor managing estate did not know re shares),
• After Will Estate settlement (minus shares) it came to light that Mrs X claimed the shares as hers and they were paid to her

??????

Swerv-o

OK, may not be fraud in that case - 95% cops will claim this is civil, however the offence of retaining a wrongful credit may have been disclosed here. Ill have to check the points to prove.

Definitely speak to a UK solicitor and do it as soon as possible. Don't wait around as this could diminish your claim in the eyes of a court.


S

Bermudashorts

I wondered same as Swervo whe I first saw this thread and had a quick read around. I think this is fraud but sounds like with fraud you can go down two separate avenues and seems to be a personal choice.

The first being to contact police and pursue (ask them to pursue) a criminal investigation. In this case the focus of any action will be on pursuit of justice and punishment of the guilty party rather than to actual recover the items / money obtained through the deception. And of course the police could decide it is not worth the bother

The focus of a civil action on the other hand, will wholly be around recovering the items / money and returning it to the rightful owner. So that sounds like the way to go in this case.

jacknscoob

Thanks guys.

I can't really imagine the police being interested, like you said, however if they were I wonder what the type of charge would be....Theft by Deception?? I dunno.

Anyways, I guess I'll be getting a UK solicitor and try and get the money back. So this person has signed a legal document stating that the shares were hers when they were not (1) and then taken the money (2). So this is a case of fraud and theft?

Bermudashorts

Fraud, theft, deception ... I wouldn't worry about the precise description tbh. Legal action could be costly, is it a large sum involved? Can small claims court handle it? Otherwise maybe a no win no fee deal might make sense.

moneypenny20

Putting my hand up to being a bit dumb here but how do you know it's theft/deception/fraud? Mr X didn't change the shares joint ownership to sole so Mrs X's name was still on them. If Mr X didn't mention on his will that Mrs X was not to have them but they were to go to XXX then surely it's just tough titty that Mrs X ended up with them and Mr X cocked up? Do you know with 100% certainty that Mr and Mrs X didn't have a conversation about said shares and agree that Mrs X could have them on Mr Xs death?

spouse of scouse

Totally agree with Moneypenny. The shares were still in Mrs X's name (jointly with her deceased ex) - you can't steal what is legally yours.

In my opinion, you couldn't even get Mrs X for failing to adhere to the settlement terms, because Mr X didn't either (and as moneypenny says, he could have changed his mind).

Entirely up to you, but I'd let it go.

Bermudashorts

OP said that the divorce settlement deemed that the shares would go to Mr X as part of the deal. Obviously he was remiss in not auctioning this. But Mrs X must have known what the divorce settlement stated and therefore claiming the shares as her own was fraud / theft.

moneypenny20

But neither you nor I know if a conversation took place between Mr & Mrs X regarding the shares or what Mr X intended to do with the shares in respect of his will. Maybe OP knows for a fact or maybe she doesn't but going on the info given here you can't say one way or another.

Bermudashorts

Well they were his shares, not hers. They were divorced so she had no claim on them unless the will specifically said so. Too bad if he had intentions or even a conversation in which he said his ex wife could have the shares. It needs to be either written down in a will or else intestate applies if there is no will.

Yes I am assuming that the will did not say the shares were to go to the ex wife, if it did, presumably OP would not have raised the issue.

spouse of scouse

Also 'too bad' that he didn't take any action to have the shares put solely in his name after the divorce, instead of leaving her name on them as a legal owner

We can all go on about it, but as none of us are lawyers all we're really doing is giving our own opinion. I'm sure the OP will do as they think fit.