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Old Feb 5th 2006, 3:16 am   #91
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Default Re: Feel Shocked & Justified!!!

Does anybody have $1.80 for an australian newspaper

Australia does not produce miracle children. It spins out the same mix of good and bad there is in the UK or anywhere. If you picked up todays paper you would read and see pictures of yobs in Qld smashing up public transport, 2 x 14 year old girls in Sydney who murdered a disabled guy who was working as a taxi driver. 7 children attacking a woman and robbing here in a sydney carpark. The funeral of two young sisters murdered in their own home in Melbourne. The Premier and Chief Judge both called for australians to start using manners again and stop being so self centred and be responsible for their childrens actions. Binge drinking is old hat been a prob here for ages. It goes on and on, I could do links but not one person in this thread would want to hear any of it.

As for hommus and celery lunches, most kids here arrive with a box of crap, the government has just launched a 6 million buck campaign to get aussie kids off the couch and off the playstation and is telling them to exercise. 25% are overweight or obese.

It would be insulting to read most pom kids are like that suggested in this thread, we have been there recently and most of our friends/families kids were pretty normal just like our friends and families kids here. The bad element that exists in the UK exists here too, or are all these things that happen in OZ the result of us brit immigrants Ludicrous suggestion really isnt it?
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Old Feb 5th 2006, 4:13 am   #92
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Default Re: Feel Shocked & Justified!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jad n rich
Does anybody have $1.80 for an australian newspaper

Australia does not produce miracle children. It spins out the same mix of good and bad there is in the UK or anywhere. If you picked up todays paper you would read and see pictures of yobs in Qld smashing up public transport, 2 x 14 year old girls in Sydney who murdered a disabled guy who was working as a taxi driver. 7 children attacking a woman and robbing here in a sydney carpark. The funeral of two young sisters murdered in their own home in Melbourne. The Premier and Chief Judge both called for australians to start using manners again and stop being so self centred and be responsible for their childrens actions. Binge drinking is old hat been a prob here for ages. It goes on and on, I could do links but not one person in this thread would want to hear any of it.

As for hommus and celery lunches, most kids here arrive with a box of crap, the government has just launched a 6 million buck campaign to get aussie kids off the couch and off the playstation and is telling them to exercise. 25% are overweight or obese.

It would be insulting to read most pom kids are like that suggested in this thread, we have been there recently and most of our friends/families kids were pretty normal just like our friends and families kids here. The bad element that exists in the UK exists here too, or are all these things that happen in OZ the result of us brit immigrants Ludicrous suggestion really isnt it?

nobody suggested that most "pom" kids are like this
the problems that we are having in the UK is caused by a tiny majority of the population
made much much worse by a weak judicial system that
is ineffective
slapping hands and legs and doing little else

latest from the bbc

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sta...ob_culture.stm
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Old Feb 5th 2006, 4:29 am   #93
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Default Re: Feel Shocked & Justified!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by steve`o
nobody suggested that most "pom" kids are like this
the problems that we are having in the UK is caused by a tiny majority of the population
made much much worse by a weak judicial system that
is ineffective
slapping hands and legs and doing little else

latest from the bbc

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sta...ob_culture.stm
I guess you mean a tiny proportion, not tiny majority, and that is exactly it, its a small portion of the population, but blown up sky high by the UK media. Same stuff happens here, but the front page will still be a sport headline and about page 6 you will read about it.

As for links, I could do a page on OZ, all that would happen is people would make excuses, or the thread would end and rapidly hit page 5 of the forum

If you want to bring facts and figures in, violent crime in OZ is higher than in the UK in some areas like crime against women, rapes etc, do a search that threads been done loads too. Alcohol and drug usage is very high too. The australian government has quoted improving its legal powers to UK standards twice just this week, dont think law enforcements that great here! especially against under 18's

Now if people were reading aussie newsites/newspapers (all of the stuff I mentioned was there in the last 5 days would there be threads like this.
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Old Feb 5th 2006, 4:45 am   #94
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Default Re: Feel Shocked & Justified!!!

My friend lives in the village of Upper Caldicote in Bedfordshire - not a posh village but nice, family orientated etc
She rang me in Oz at Xmas to say there would not be an Xmas card in the post. She had gone to the local post office along with baby in carry cot and was standing the the queue when 3 men in balaclavas came in demanding money and armed with whatever (not sure if it was a gun). She managed to hide in the adjoining shop but they proceeded to give the post office worker a real bashing (as they say here) and take off with 15 grand.

And she'd moved out of London to live somewhere nicer!
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Old Feb 5th 2006, 5:07 am   #95
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Default Re: Feel Shocked & Justified!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jad n rich
I guess you mean a tiny proportion, not tiny majority, and that is exactly it, its a small portion of the population, but blown up sky high by the UK media. Same stuff happens here, but the front page will still be a sport headline and about page 6 you will read about it.

As for links, I could do a page on OZ, all that would happen is people would make excuses, or the thread would end and rapidly hit page 5 of the forum

If you want to bring facts and figures in, violent crime in OZ is higher than in the UK in some areas like crime against women, rapes etc, do a search that threads been done loads too. Alcohol and drug usage is very high too. The australian government has quoted improving its legal powers to UK standards twice just this week, dont think law enforcements that great here! especially against under 18's

Now if people were reading aussie newsites/newspapers (all of the stuff I mentioned was there in the last 5 days would there be threads like this.
as always if you want to know whats what ask a local

as i live & work in the UK i can only talk about this from a UK perspective so your insight to whats happening in Aus is enlightening and and at the same time worrying

by the way
who am i discussing this with Jad or Rich

regards Steve
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Old Feb 5th 2006, 5:14 am   #96
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Default Re: Feel Shocked & Justified!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by steve`o
as always if you want to know whats what ask a local

as i live & work in the UK i can only talk about this from a UK perspective so your insight to whats happening in Aus is enlightening and and at the same time worrying

by the way
who am i discussing this with Jad or Rich

regards Steve
I dont think its worrying as in comparing countries , social standards, family values etc have slipped worldwide not just the UK or australia. For the australian prime minister and justice system to to discuss the problem tho its certainly a reality here too.

Crime rates are actually pretty similar but as others have said before 2 factors make it more obvious in the UK. One is the UK media, I recently posted about exact crimes that happened in the UK while there (front page) and how in OZ the same stuff was a tiny column, in one case one line.

The other is population density, although when trying to imagine the population in OZ remember most of it is crammed into several major areas, a lot of OZ is not habitable, so of course its not exactly one person to several hundred miles as many statistics would have it

Remember too, its very easy to find out what does go on here, by way of news sites, say www.news.com.au or papers, theres loads but www.theaustralian.com.au or www.smh.com.au or www.theage.com.au will all help

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Old Feb 5th 2006, 5:17 am   #97
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Default Re: Feel Shocked & Justified!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by steve`o
as always if you want to know whats what ask a local
That's a good idea. That also helps in finding the right area over here, as some areas are obviously worse than others, much the same as the UK.
 
Old Feb 5th 2006, 5:56 am   #98
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Default Re: Feel Shocked & Justified!!!

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Originally Posted by ABCDiamond
That's a good idea. That also helps in finding the right area over here, as some areas are obviously worse than others, much the same as the UK.
i dont think its an area thing in the UK
its peoples attitudes that have changed

from personal experience

we live, i like to think in a good area of Manchester
nice house good neighbours and our daughter attends the local grammar school
we live in trafford one of the last bastions of grammar school education and we moved here purposely to get our daughter into this highly rated school, she`s in her second year

this year however her class`s has been badly disrupted by two pupils in her class, last year they were "lads" a bit noisy but nothing bad, they have come back after the summer holidays as completely different kids
very disruptive abusive f-ing and blinding in class
these are only 12 / 13 year olds
they have both been excluded on several occasions
but even excluding them is a joke
for example if they overstep the line and are removed from class pending a 3 day exclusion.
under the present rules the school has to give them
a minimum of 24 hrs notice, so the little sods get to disrupt the lessons the next day as well then they get 3 days off school, no obvious hardship and come back in again the next Monday to repeat the whole scenario
we have spoken to the teachers they feel that their hands are tied. as i said at the start this isn`t some inner city school in a rough area, you have to pass an entrance exam to get in this school and every year its massively over subscribed

i still think alot of it is down to the dont give a f**k attitude and total lack of discipline that i mentioned earlier in this thread

regards Steve
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Old Feb 5th 2006, 6:02 am   #99
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Default Re: Feel Shocked & Justified!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jad n rich
Crime rates are actually pretty similar but as others have said before 2 factors make it more obvious in the UK. One is the UK media, I recently posted about exact crimes that happened in the UK while there (front page) and how in OZ the same stuff was a tiny column, in one case one line.J
your dead right about the UK media blowing stuff out of proportion
shock news tactics seem to sell papers so they highlight the worst stories

regards Steve
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Old Feb 5th 2006, 7:35 am   #100
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Cool Re: Feel Shocked & Justified!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jad n rich
If you want to bring facts and figures in, violent crime in OZ is higher than in the UK in some areas like crime against women, rapes etc, do a search that threads been done loads too. Alcohol and drug usage is very high too. The australian government has quoted improving its legal powers to UK standards twice just this week, dont think law enforcements that great here! especially against under 18's
"Lager lout." "Yob culture." "ASBO." "Happy slapping." "Chavs." "Football hooliganism." These terms did not originate in Australia. In fact, my country doesn't even have any such thing as lager louts, yob culture, ASBOs, happy slapping, chavs, or football hooliganism. Our sports fans don't spark a massive police operation in Europe whenever they go abroad. Our tourists don't have a reputation for harrassing the locals in Ibiza.

We do have "hoons" and "hoon culture" - but the UK's "boy racers" are essentially no different.

Australia's One Nation party is the closest we've ever got to the UK's BNP. But the differences between the two are profound. The BNP (formed in 1982) has wide support, and recently won a court battle over an inflammatory speech by Nick Griffin. (Though I expect him to be nailed at the retrial.)

Back home, One Nation received little else but mockery and derision since its shaky start in 1997. So great was the national outcry against Pauline Hanson and her little band of bigots that she actually feared for her life. Public appearances were marked by massive protests and the hurling of urine-filled water balloons. By the year 2000, One Nation had collaped under the weight of its own internal bickering, and was deregistered as a political party.

So much for the support of racism in Australia.

Moving on to crime... I've checked the statistics - and yes, Australia rates higher for certain crimes (per capita) than the UK. But the difference is often less than one percent; utterly negligible in anyone's language.

For example:

Rape victims

Australia: 1%

United Kingdom: 0.9%

Murders with Firearms per 1,000 people

Australia: 0.00293678

United Kingdom: 0.00102579
And it doesn't always work in the UK's favour:

Assaults per Capita

United Kingdom: 7.45959

Australia: 7.02459
Sometimes it's merely a case of which statistic we'd rather be looking at.

You've mentioned drug offences:

Drug Offences per 100,000 people

United Kingdom: 214.3
Australia doesn't even make it into the top 60 for drug offences per 100,000 people, but the UK is 12th on the ladder. So drug abuse may be "very high" in Australia (um... relative to whom, though? The Maldives, perhaps?) but it's a hell of a lot higher in the UK.

And how about total crimes per capita? That might be interesting...

Total Crimes per Capita

United Kingdom: 85.5517
Again, Australia doesn't even make it into the top 60 for total crimes per capita, while the UK is 6th on the ladder.

Leaving these unfortunate comparisons aside for the moment, I think it's fair to say that this issue is not solely about crime. The main point which people have kept coming back to in this thread is that the two societies (UK & Australia) are very different in certain, significant ways. Particular reference has been made to the relationship between adults and children/youths, and the overall level of courtesy and respect that the average punter can expect from Australian youngsters.

To take just one example, someone has pointed out that Australian families seem to do things together more often than their UK counterparts. On the basis of 31 years in Australia and just over 2 years in the UK, I would agree.

It is something which has been mentioned on this forum before.

I recall a thread in which a group of British ex-pats were bemoaning the fact that their Aussie neighbours did not share their preference for leaving the kids at home and going out for a "girls' night", a pub crawl, or a bit of clubbing on the weekend. The complaint was made that Aussie parents are too inclined to spend time with their children rather than going out with their adult friends. It led to the generalisation that Aussie parents are all in bed by 9pm, or some such nonsense.

To me, this emphasises the difference between social attitudes in the two countries.

Australia is no bed of roses. Nor is the UK. At the end of the day, it will come down to what you're accustomed to, what you prefer, and what you're better at putting up with.

Speaking for myself, I would rather live back home than in the UK. But if I did remain in the northern hemisphere, I would move to Devon (which is utterly gorgeous, and relatively unspoilt) or across the water to the Irish Republic (Devon with an Irish accent.) I spent my honeymoon there, and couldn't have asked for a better experience.

BEP-ers will always disagree on this topic, but there's at least one thing on which consent is guaranteed: ladies and gentlemen, you pays your money and you makes your choice.

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Old Feb 5th 2006, 7:39 am   #101
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Default Re: Feel Shocked & Justified!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vash the Stampede
"Lager lout." "Yob culture." "ASBO." "Happy slapping." "Chavs." "Football hooliganism." These terms did not originate in Australia. In fact, my country doesn't even have any such thing as lager louts, yob culture, ASBOs, happy slapping, chavs, or football hooliganism. Our sports fans don't spark a massive police operation in Europe whenever they go abroad. Our tourists don't have a reputation for harrassing the locals in Ibiza.

We do have "hoons" and "hoon culture" - but the UK's "boy racers" are essentially no different.
best post all year. Jad is right that there is violent crime everywhere. However, the UK breeds a certain type of 'wanker' culture as a kind of 'norm' even if it is a kind of aspiration thing, no doubt about it. I see far less of it here - attitude amongst average kids.
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Old Feb 5th 2006, 8:10 am   #102
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Default Re: Feel Shocked & Justified!!!

just taken this from memories thread in the barbie
as i thought it was fitting to this thread


When any parent could discipline any kid, or feed him or use him to
carry groceries and nobody, not even the kid, thought a thing of it.
When being sent to the head's office was nothing compared to the fate
that awaited a misbehaving student at home.
Basically, we were in fear for our lives but it wasn't because of
drive-by shootings, drugs, gangs etc. parents and
Grandparents were a much bigger threat! - and some of us are still
afraid of them!!
Didn't that feel good?


yes it did i come from this era i`m a child of the sixties and seventies

remember it well
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Old Feb 5th 2006, 8:12 am   #103
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Lightbulb Re: Feel Shocked & Justified!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by steve`o
just taken this from memories thread in the barbie
as i thought it was fitting to this thread


When any parent could discipline any kid, or feed him or use him to
carry groceries and nobody, not even the kid, thought a thing of it.
When being sent to the head's office was nothing compared to the fate
that awaited a misbehaving student at home.
Basically, we were in fear for our lives but it wasn't because of
drive-by shootings, drugs, gangs etc. parents and
Grandparents were a much bigger threat! - and some of us are still
afraid of them!!
Didn't that feel good?


yes it did i come from this era i`m a child of the sixties and seventies

remember it well
Well said, mate. I'm a child of the 70s myself.
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Old Feb 5th 2006, 8:45 am   #104
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Default Re: Feel Shocked & Justified!!!

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Originally Posted by Vash the Stampede
BEP-ers will always disagree on this topic, but there's at least one thing on which consent is guaranteed: ladies and gentlemen, you pays your money and you makes your choice.
Excellent post Vash - totally agree. I did wonder how long it would take for this thread to become more contentious than it started out. I wouldn't say I agree with some of the more, ahem, extreme views expressed in this thread, but similarly I think that the old rose-tinted specs can be bifocal, particularly when used by returning expats to view the UK.
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Old Feb 5th 2006, 8:50 am   #105
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Default Re: Feel Shocked & Justified!!!

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Excellent post Vash - totally agree. I did wonder how long it would take for this thread to become more contentious than it started out. I wouldn't say I agree with some of the more, ahem, extreme views expressed in this thread, but similarly I think that the old rose-tinted specs can be bifocal, particularly when used by returning expats to view the UK.

You should go to the NZ forum, the thread on there says apparantly 'all' muslims are terrorists. That is getting very extreme.

Think I might stay on this thread.
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