Go Back   British Expats / Living & Moving Abroad / Australia

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old Apr 20th 2017, 12:58 am   #31
GarryP 
snɐןɔ ʎʇıuɐs
 
GarryP's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,912
GarryP has a reputation beyond reputeGarryP has a reputation beyond reputeGarryP has a reputation beyond reputeGarryP has a reputation beyond reputeGarryP has a reputation beyond reputeGarryP has a reputation beyond reputeGarryP has a reputation beyond reputeGarryP has a reputation beyond reputeGarryP has a reputation beyond reputeGarryP has a reputation beyond reputeGarryP has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: 457 visa scrapped

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevenglish1 View Post
Show a bit of respect, she is a moderator
I'm agreeing with Moneypenny ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevenglish1 View Post
How can it be badly thought out and destructive AND innefectual?
What they are doing is NOT removing the rorts from the visa, so Aussie workers are still disadvantaged from things that should be filled onshore (like the plumbers etc.) The migrants that are bought in are disadvantaged since there is nothing to ensure they are paid the going rate AND now many will not have a path to residency.

However the business owners (and corporate donors to the libs) can still bring in as many as they like in the key rort roles, and low pay, and because they are still tied to the employer, treat them like shit. And with these FTA agreements, they don't even have to look like they are market testing.

It's not badly thought out - it's thought out with evil intent, rather than what was claimed in the press conference. As I say, many more people are recognising that now
GarryP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 20th 2017, 1:22 am   #32
idealist
 
stevenglish1's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 3,262
stevenglish1 has a reputation beyond reputestevenglish1 has a reputation beyond reputestevenglish1 has a reputation beyond reputestevenglish1 has a reputation beyond reputestevenglish1 has a reputation beyond reputestevenglish1 has a reputation beyond reputestevenglish1 has a reputation beyond reputestevenglish1 has a reputation beyond reputestevenglish1 has a reputation beyond reputestevenglish1 has a reputation beyond reputestevenglish1 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: 457 visa scrapped

Quote:
Originally Posted by GarryP View Post
I'm agreeing with Moneypenny ...

Did my sense of humour go over your head, or was it, as I suspect, beneath you?

What they are doing is NOT removing the rorts from the visa, so Aussie workers are still disadvantaged from things that should be filled onshore (like the plumbers etc.) The migrants that are bought in are disadvantaged since there is nothing to ensure they are paid the going rate AND now many will not have a path to residency.

However the business owners (and corporate donors to the libs) can still bring in as many as they like in the key rort roles, and low pay, and because they are still tied to the employer, treat them like shit. And with these FTA agreements, they don't even have to look like they are market testing.

It's not badly thought out - it's thought out with evil intent, rather than what was claimed in the press conference. As I say, many more people are recognising that now
So nothing has changed, the 457 has always been used by employers as a stick with which to beat employees, and employers haven't to my knowledge ever looked at Aussies first. As for low pay though, as I understood it 457 holders' minimum wage is substantially above the norm. The path to residency is the only biggun here, and with no path there'll be a big drop in people coming on 457s.
__________________
If you don't read the news you're uninformed, if you do you're mis-informed. That's why I choose beer
stevenglish1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 20th 2017, 1:25 am   #33
BE Enthusiast
 
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 699
xizzles has a reputation beyond reputexizzles has a reputation beyond reputexizzles has a reputation beyond reputexizzles has a reputation beyond reputexizzles has a reputation beyond reputexizzles has a reputation beyond reputexizzles has a reputation beyond reputexizzles has a reputation beyond reputexizzles has a reputation beyond reputexizzles has a reputation beyond reputexizzles has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: 457 visa scrapped

Fewer flotsam coming in, more of Australia for the entitled and privileged then.
xizzles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 20th 2017, 1:32 am   #34
Bix Male
da Bonehead
 
Bix's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2004
Location: Lion in da jungle
Posts: 22,751
Bix has a reputation beyond reputeBix has a reputation beyond reputeBix has a reputation beyond reputeBix has a reputation beyond reputeBix has a reputation beyond reputeBix has a reputation beyond reputeBix has a reputation beyond reputeBix has a reputation beyond reputeBix has a reputation beyond reputeBix has a reputation beyond reputeBix has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: 457 visa scrapped

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevenglish1 View Post
So nothing has changed, the 457 has always been used by employers as a stick with which to beat employees, and employers haven't to my knowledge ever looked at Aussies first. As for low pay though, as I understood it 457 holders' minimum wage is substantially above the norm. The path to residency is the only biggun here, and with no path there'll be a big drop in people coming on 457s.


Many 457 holders either do not know their rights or are afraid to enact them. It's a catch 22 for the visa holder. Complain and you might lose your job. Unscrupulous sponsors prey on that fear.

Many use the 457 for quick access to the country so with no PR trail I agree there won't be many takers.
__________________
2 lions walking down mane street and one said to the other "Not many people about are there?"


Bix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 20th 2017, 1:33 am   #35
idealist
 
stevenglish1's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 3,262
stevenglish1 has a reputation beyond reputestevenglish1 has a reputation beyond reputestevenglish1 has a reputation beyond reputestevenglish1 has a reputation beyond reputestevenglish1 has a reputation beyond reputestevenglish1 has a reputation beyond reputestevenglish1 has a reputation beyond reputestevenglish1 has a reputation beyond reputestevenglish1 has a reputation beyond reputestevenglish1 has a reputation beyond reputestevenglish1 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: 457 visa scrapped

Quote:
Originally Posted by xizzles View Post
Fewer flotsam coming in, more of Australia for the entitled and privileged then.
Being jetsam as I am, I try not to associate with the flotsam
__________________
If you don't read the news you're uninformed, if you do you're mis-informed. That's why I choose beer
stevenglish1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 20th 2017, 1:51 am   #36
Beoz 
Lost in BE Cyberspace
 
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 10,815
Beoz has a reputation beyond reputeBeoz has a reputation beyond reputeBeoz has a reputation beyond reputeBeoz has a reputation beyond reputeBeoz has a reputation beyond reputeBeoz has a reputation beyond reputeBeoz has a reputation beyond reputeBeoz has a reputation beyond reputeBeoz has a reputation beyond reputeBeoz has a reputation beyond reputeBeoz has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: 457 visa scrapped

Quote:
Originally Posted by GarryP View Post
Oh dear, another day, another gaping hole. According to Labor, the FTA agreements that the coalition have been in such a hurry to sign will mean 77% of 457s will be waved through without any market testing - which pretty much invalidates this whole sorry mess.

Bill Shorten claims 77pc of 457 visa workers excluded from checks thanks to FTAs - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

BTW I've changed my mind. I don't think there's necessarily a set of bad employment figures coming through. With this, and the new citizenship changes just announced, I think he's just playing up to the far right racist wing prior to the budget coming out - which looks to be really bad (who knew you can't cut your way to greatness). He needs something to cover his back from the storm of knives that will arrive otherwise. It's noticeable that Dutton, the chief pretender to the throne, was included in this little charade.
Yep. Your agenda is so evident. Have you got a slight urge to go on a dirty weekend away with Bill Shorten?
Beoz is online now   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 20th 2017, 1:54 am   #37
BE Enthusiast
 
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 699
xizzles has a reputation beyond reputexizzles has a reputation beyond reputexizzles has a reputation beyond reputexizzles has a reputation beyond reputexizzles has a reputation beyond reputexizzles has a reputation beyond reputexizzles has a reputation beyond reputexizzles has a reputation beyond reputexizzles has a reputation beyond reputexizzles has a reputation beyond reputexizzles has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: 457 visa scrapped

Wait, I just realised, in anticipation of the tougher Citizenship English Language requirements, it should have been fewer pieces of flotsam...

Australia, protector and defender of the Queen's English.
xizzles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 20th 2017, 1:55 am   #38
BEVS 
BE Site Lead
Administrator
 
BEVS's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 30,031
BEVS has a reputation beyond reputeBEVS has a reputation beyond reputeBEVS has a reputation beyond reputeBEVS has a reputation beyond reputeBEVS has a reputation beyond reputeBEVS has a reputation beyond reputeBEVS has a reputation beyond reputeBEVS has a reputation beyond reputeBEVS has a reputation beyond reputeBEVS has a reputation beyond reputeBEVS has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: 457 visa scrapped

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beoz View Post
Training to be a plumber takes longer than many degrees.
It certainly does & thank you for writing that.. It is also an occupation that has to maintain and meet a govt standard because it can effect public health in more ways than one. It is far more complex & diverse than many realise.

MrBEVS had 5 years of training plus the practical and written exams to meet UK standards. He then virtually did that whole thing again to meet NZ standards.
One cannot train & teach someone to be a quality experienced knowledable tradesman in a "short space of time". Anymore than one can do that with an accountant , a nurse or even a GP.

Trade shortages comes from young'uns expectations these years. Many do not want to work full-time for at least 4 years + training + learning + assessment + exams and all for an apprentice wage.


Quote:
Originally Posted by stevenglish1 View Post
Show a bit of respect, she is a moderator
Karma matey.
__________________
BE Site Lead.
For help, problems and issues. Please feel free to PM or email me. You can also use the contact form.
BEVS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 20th 2017, 1:58 am   #39
idealist
 
stevenglish1's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 3,262
stevenglish1 has a reputation beyond reputestevenglish1 has a reputation beyond reputestevenglish1 has a reputation beyond reputestevenglish1 has a reputation beyond reputestevenglish1 has a reputation beyond reputestevenglish1 has a reputation beyond reputestevenglish1 has a reputation beyond reputestevenglish1 has a reputation beyond reputestevenglish1 has a reputation beyond reputestevenglish1 has a reputation beyond reputestevenglish1 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: 457 visa scrapped

Quote:
Originally Posted by BEVS View Post
Karma matey.
Haha, BEVS gets me
__________________
If you don't read the news you're uninformed, if you do you're mis-informed. That's why I choose beer
stevenglish1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 20th 2017, 2:00 am   #40
Beoz 
Lost in BE Cyberspace
 
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 10,815
Beoz has a reputation beyond reputeBeoz has a reputation beyond reputeBeoz has a reputation beyond reputeBeoz has a reputation beyond reputeBeoz has a reputation beyond reputeBeoz has a reputation beyond reputeBeoz has a reputation beyond reputeBeoz has a reputation beyond reputeBeoz has a reputation beyond reputeBeoz has a reputation beyond reputeBeoz has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: 457 visa scrapped

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevenglish1 View Post
So nothing has changed, the 457 has always been used by employers as a stick with which to beat employees, and employers haven't to my knowledge ever looked at Aussies first. As for low pay though, as I understood it 457 holders' minimum wage is substantially above the norm. The path to residency is the only biggun here, and with no path there'll be a big drop in people coming on 457s.
Yep. Though there is still a path to residency, you just need 4 years instead of 3. Exactly like the UK does.

There are 2 types, a 4 year and a 2 year. The 4 year has a lot less jobs on the list and is designed for a person that's really hard to find. 2 year is easier, more jobs.

I do wonder what happens after 2 years though. If you can't source anyone locally, can the same candidate reapply, clocking up another 2 years, and there's your path to residency?

So the end result of this is that employers are going to have to be serious. Gone of the days of promising someone a path to residency to attract them. Gone of the days of being tied to the employer long term. Employers are going to have to stump up the big bucks, as the candidates will want that if its effectively going to be a 2 year contract role, then you are out.
Beoz is online now   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 20th 2017, 2:01 am   #41
Card Carrying Deplorable
 
Amazulu's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2003
Location: Alloha snack bar
Posts: 22,898
Amazulu has a reputation beyond reputeAmazulu has a reputation beyond reputeAmazulu has a reputation beyond reputeAmazulu has a reputation beyond reputeAmazulu has a reputation beyond reputeAmazulu has a reputation beyond reputeAmazulu has a reputation beyond reputeAmazulu has a reputation beyond reputeAmazulu has a reputation beyond reputeAmazulu has a reputation beyond reputeAmazulu has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: 457 visa scrapped

Quote:
Originally Posted by GarryP View Post
Oh dear, another day, another gaping hole. According to Labor, the FTA agreements that the coalition have been in such a hurry to sign will mean 77% of 457s will be waved through without any market testing - which pretty much invalidates this whole sorry mess.

Bill Shorten claims 77pc of 457 visa workers excluded from checks thanks to FTAs - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

BTW I've changed my mind. I don't think there's necessarily a set of bad employment figures coming through. With this, and the new citizenship changes just announced, I think he's just playing up to the far right racist wing prior to the budget coming out - which looks to be really bad (who knew you can't cut your way to greatness). He needs something to cover his back from the storm of knives that will arrive otherwise. It's noticeable that Dutton, the chief pretender to the throne, was included in this little charade.
Bill Shorten - the CFMEU's bitch
__________________
Australia/UK - Same sh*t, different bucket
The Wallaby, still the bitch of the Springbok.
Amazulu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 20th 2017, 2:01 am   #42
Beoz 
Lost in BE Cyberspace
 
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 10,815
Beoz has a reputation beyond reputeBeoz has a reputation beyond reputeBeoz has a reputation beyond reputeBeoz has a reputation beyond reputeBeoz has a reputation beyond reputeBeoz has a reputation beyond reputeBeoz has a reputation beyond reputeBeoz has a reputation beyond reputeBeoz has a reputation beyond reputeBeoz has a reputation beyond reputeBeoz has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: 457 visa scrapped

Quote:
Originally Posted by BEVS View Post
It certainly does & thank you for writing that.. It is also an occupation that has to maintain and meet a govt standard because it can effect public health in more ways than one. It is far more complex & diverse than many realise.

MrBEVS had 5 years of training plus the practical and written exams to meet UK standards. He then virtually did that whole thing again to meet NZ standards.
One cannot train & teach someone to be a quality experienced knowledable tradesman in a "short space of time". Anymore than one can do that with an accountant , a nurse or even a GP.

Trade shortages comes from young'uns expectations these years. Many do not want to work full-time for at least 4 years + training + learning + assessment + exams and all for an apprentice wage.

Karma matey.
No problem, anything to trip up Garry's propaganda.
Beoz is online now   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 20th 2017, 3:11 am   #43
GarryP 
snɐןɔ ʎʇıuɐs
 
GarryP's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,912
GarryP has a reputation beyond reputeGarryP has a reputation beyond reputeGarryP has a reputation beyond reputeGarryP has a reputation beyond reputeGarryP has a reputation beyond reputeGarryP has a reputation beyond reputeGarryP has a reputation beyond reputeGarryP has a reputation beyond reputeGarryP has a reputation beyond reputeGarryP has a reputation beyond reputeGarryP has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: 457 visa scrapped

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevenglish1 View Post
Did my sense of humour go over your head, or was it, as I suspect, beneath you?
That was humour?

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevenglish1 View Post
So nothing has changed, the 457 has always been used by employers as a stick with which to beat employees, and employers haven't to my knowledge ever looked at Aussies first. As for low pay though, as I understood it 457 holders' minimum wage is substantially above the norm. The path to residency is the only biggun here, and with no path there'll be a big drop in people coming on 457s.
457 minimum pay is $53k, and some employers underpay even that. Basically there's not enough governance, because the coalition doesn't like to employ people to check.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beoz View Post
No problem, anything to trip up Garry's propaganda.
Sigh.

Once again, you haven't got within 100 miles of even answering the facts presented. Hell, you are heading away from even understanding it, fingers in ears.

This was a political act by Trunbull, designed to appeal to the anti-immigrant mouth breathers of his party after seeing it work so well in the US and UK. And, of course, 457 visa holders can't vote.

Strategically it's a misstep, since getting really skilled types will help as automation bites the arse out of rote jobs. A microbiologist, going forward, is going to be more employable than an accountant. And if you want the average standard of living to not collapse, you are going to need a big rebalancing.
GarryP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 20th 2017, 3:28 am   #44
Card Carrying Deplorable
 
Amazulu's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2003
Location: Alloha snack bar
Posts: 22,898
Amazulu has a reputation beyond reputeAmazulu has a reputation beyond reputeAmazulu has a reputation beyond reputeAmazulu has a reputation beyond reputeAmazulu has a reputation beyond reputeAmazulu has a reputation beyond reputeAmazulu has a reputation beyond reputeAmazulu has a reputation beyond reputeAmazulu has a reputation beyond reputeAmazulu has a reputation beyond reputeAmazulu has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: 457 visa scrapped

Quote:
Originally Posted by GarryP View Post
457 minimum pay is $53k, and some employers underpay even that. Basically there's not enough governance, because the coalition doesn't like to employ people to check.
Some facts to counter your BE agenda:

My understanding is that 457s have to be paid market rates in a lot of cases - it is in mining anyway. So there is no real incentive to bring in workers to replace locals, rather importing people with critical skills that the employer needs. The 457s that I have worked with (admittedly not many in my field) have been well paid but not as well as locals - I guess the cost of relocation has to be factored into the remuneration equation. Although many are happy with this as it eventually leads to OR if desired, for some this begins to grate nad has been a source of friction

From what I have read and been told, a lot of the underpayment and exploitation of 457s that has occurred has been by Asian Australian businesses employing other Asians
__________________
Australia/UK - Same sh*t, different bucket
The Wallaby, still the bitch of the Springbok.
Amazulu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 20th 2017, 6:01 am   #45
BE Forum Addict
 
verystormy's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2007
Location: Scotland
Posts: 2,848
verystormy has a reputation beyond reputeverystormy has a reputation beyond reputeverystormy has a reputation beyond reputeverystormy has a reputation beyond reputeverystormy has a reputation beyond reputeverystormy has a reputation beyond reputeverystormy has a reputation beyond reputeverystormy has a reputation beyond reputeverystormy has a reputation beyond reputeverystormy has a reputation beyond reputeverystormy has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: 457 visa scrapped

No, the new regs state that if your occupation is only eligible for a 2 year 457, then you are only eligible for two of them. After which there are no visa options.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beoz View Post
Yep. Though there is still a path to residency, you just need 4 years instead of 3. Exactly like the UK does.

There are 2 types, a 4 year and a 2 year. The 4 year has a lot less jobs on the list and is designed for a person that's really hard to find. 2 year is easier, more jobs.

I do wonder what happens after 2 years though. If you can't source anyone locally, can the same candidate reapply, clocking up another 2 years, and there's your path to residency?

So the end result of this is that employers are going to have to be serious. Gone of the days of promising someone a path to residency to attract them. Gone of the days of being tied to the employer long term. Employers are going to have to stump up the big bucks, as the candidates will want that if its effectively going to be a 2 year contract role, then you are out.
verystormy is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   British Expats / Living & Moving Abroad / Australia


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT. The time now is 1:26 am.


We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Powered by vBulletin: ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 1999-2010 BritishExpats.com