Susie1979UK

Thanks for the above useful information, starting a business would probably be the way to go, my boyfriend is a mechanic so would probably go down that route.

I've been disappointed with some of the negative comments in response to this thread especially those that imply I am in some way naive about crime comparing it to the one armed robbery near to me. My point was that this is unusual here in Surrey and my wondering was that it could be the start of things to come. However, I accept that people have their own opinions and experiences and have a right to express these.

Our move doesn't have to be South Africa and we have indeed considered other areas but obviously SA is where Jamie's family is and I'm thinking he might like to see his niece and nephew grow up and be with his parents as they grow older.

It's not a decision to take lightly and we are at the moment doing our research and getting all our facts together.

Thanks for the comments!

Tegwyn

You're disappointed? Well m'lady, you have no idea how saddened we are at even having to say these things to anyone. There are far too many that have left the country broken hearted because they have had to tear themselves from loved ones in search of a place to call home that offers safety and opportunity for themselves and their children.

Don't ask questions if you don't care for the answers. We could give you the ra ra version that the ANC would love us all to spew out and blame it on everyone else but the poor criminal. :curse: A couple of weeks ago my nephew was shot in the arm during a robbery at a take-away. Bone shattered and quite significant damage to his arm but what the hell, he's alive so that's a positive, and just unfortunate that he was at the wrong place at the wrong time! He also got car-jacked 9 months before that and they didn't kill him then either. I'll use the optimistic approach and consider the fact that he's still alive, even if having to go for trauma councelling.

I could give you a whole bunch more examples of people I care about that have been effected by crime and/ or the affirmative actionized job losses throughout S.A. but I won't bore you with these minor details. The positives in this is that it only happens to other people in other towns.

Have a ball, and no worries, we're just bitter ol' expats.

TouristTrap

**Major applause**

I've had let me see.

1. Friend gunned down by AK47 wielding men in his driveway - 3 small children left without a daddy - sad thing is that his music demo was beginning to really take off.

2. Sister held with a knife to her throat for her cellphone, thankfully she wasn't raped.

3. Another friend hijacked by 5 men wielding automatic weapons as he pulled into his gate - what saved his life is he had a tracksuit on as he'd just come home from gym and they saw he wasn't carrying a weapon on him.

4. Brother in law hijacked a few months ago and driven around for 4 hours with the 3 men discussing how they were going to get rid of him - he managed to escape when two of them went into a shebeen to buy booze. He was again in an attempted hijacking, in broad daylight mind you, a few weeks later but managed to drive away with only his back window shot out.

5. A client shot dead outside on the pavement for his car in broad daylight.

6. A friend's father, the sweetest man ever always helping in his community, murdered by a useless piece of trash, by being hit repeatedly on the head with a shovel as he was walking around the school grounds opposite his house as he tended to do.

7. A family I knew owned a tea room and one Saturday afternoon, an armed robbery with a bunch of men who came in forced everyone to lie on the floor and basically tortured them for hours threatening to kill them. They left eventually, stealing their cars, and when they called the police were told that they cops had no petrol in the cars so couldn't come out. They walked home about 10 miles with their little kids who were in the shop with them and were held up.

8. A friend of mine who moved to Australia, had gunmen break into their house and hold an automatic weapon to her little 10 year old's head whilst they demanded she open her safe. They moved to Australia within 2 months of this happening. Her nephew, someone I'd known for years, held up his store and shoot him in the leg. He still limps from it - he was about 25 at the time.

9. My mother in law has come home twice and found people in the house - during the day - who demanded she open her safe. She's lost all her jewelry, and her mother's jewelry over the years. Luckily they didn't rape/kill her.

Many many thefts and burglaries over the years.

You can believe it or not. I can guarantee that this is the norm and not the exception in South Africa. EVERYONE has been touched by crime in some way or another - or they know many, many who have. You can think you've moved to a safe area - but eventually crime will strike. Look what happened to that poor American fella in Hermanus - a so-called safe village.

Campbells

1. Go on holiday for a month but do not live it up. Go back to the UK and sort your things out and come back to SA but have 3000 pounds and a return ticket in case. At 14.3 SAR to one BP remember that every R1430 gets you 100 pounds so you will be sending lots of money back to the UK, right?

2. Security: Crime violent crimes, Crime violent crimes, Crime violent crimes,
For example, don’t wear jewellery when you go out as you can get killed for it. Personally we do not want to live in a country that offers no freedom such as this. If you have nice jewellery leave it in the safe at home, never wear it otherwise you are risking your life. Sounds like SA is a country with lots to offer YOU.

3. Even with “rare” work skills you will still struggle to get a job because you are white. With 40% unemployment there currently do you think SA is going to open its arms to an “immigrant” especially from a “colonial” country that they hate so much? Just read the news.

4. Great – crackdown on fake marriages. Murderers still roam the streets and most of the police force is scared of the armed criminals. That is if the police have petrol in their vehicles to respond to calls. Fake marriages criminals be on the lookout the law in SA is very strict. Yeah, right.

5. Not easy to find work and wages generally low.

At 14.34 SA Rands to the pound you will have to earn R 14 340 SA Rands to equal 1000 pounds. What is the minimum wage for kids flipping burgers in the UK and what is the same in SA.

You will find it very difficult to get a job because you are white. We have friends there who have serious management skills and can not get jobs because of the racial state of South Africa when it comes to their racial preferencing employment programmes. It is known as BEE to mention any of the other racial based employment policies.

These not only “dictate” the race that companies can & can not employ but also that they MUST have a black shareholder in the company. I am talking from experience. If you are young then R15 000 is a high salary in SA whilst 1000 pound is earnt by kids flipping’ burgers in the UK. You decide where you INVEST for your future….

6. BEE credentials. This means you must have a black shareholder in the business and also be dictated to regarding which race of employees you can & can not employ. Our friends went back to SA 18 months ago and opened up a business. Took them 4 months to get a telephone line from the ONLY telephone company there, Telkom.

7. Lots of bullshitters. Yup, this is so true and it starts right at the top with the ANC who run the country. That is why they have a media control with regards to the news that is allowed to be told, just like Zimbabwe. That is why is you say anything about the government you will end up losing your job, just like Zimbabwe.

8. Try to be very positive about the country, even although there is rape & murder all around you and little babies being slaughtered and cut up for voodoo rituals – be positive, especially if you are a parent. Just keep smiling and it will all go away. Listen more than you talk, that way you will hear all the brainwashing better and fit right in. That way you can become just another zombie in Africa with no rights, no freedom of speech and all the other things that they want you to listen to but are actually not there. Hence, do not speak – just listen. Sounds a bit like the Nazis tactics to me, in fact more like Mugabe’s.

9. Visit the famous tourist attractions, like Table Mountain and all the other tourist attractions where the robbers wait to mug, rape & murder and do not get caught. Be careful you don’t have a fake marriage.

Look at the ways you can help people but do not speak about the thousands of people that are living in poverty, remember just listen, and don’t talk. When you see children living in cardboard boxes in a freezing Gauteng winter and barefoot children standing at traffic light begging for food as the government officials speed past in their latest BMWs. Don’t say anything, just listen and remember it is your responsibility to help these children and all the others suffering from dire poverty, just like Zimbabwe. After all it was the colonials that did this to these people and therefore your responsibility not the ANC government that run the country.

10. It will help to learn Zulu or Sotho. This will assist you in what? Getting a telephone sooner? Basically denounce anything British (colonial) the fact that you hate the UK and you believe SA if fantastic and you will be invited to all the parties. DO NOT mention violent crime, rape, corruption, Zimbabwe, terrorism, illegal immigrants, poverty, miss-management, media censorship, BEE policies, the overpriced housing, 40% unemployment, filth and litter, squatter camps, HIV AIDS everywhere, so make sure you are pretty fluent in these languages in case anyone mistakes you for British. Hey, they have some great parties in SA but just remember to be careful driving home; you may just get hi-jacked

Make sure you are ready to respond to anyone asking you why you are there as you might be mistaken for a slave trader or colonialist trying to undermine the ANC for which you will most certainly go to jail.

Other than that I would say you will be okay in SA. Make your choices wisely and think about if you ever want to have children, what DOES SA HAVE TO OFFER YOU
That is the question you need to be asking as you have a lot of choices, not just in SA.

Take advise – LISTEN, don’t talk.

TouristTrap

That deserves South Africa forum post of the year award

Tegwyn

Come on, that is way too negative. Look at it this way, these folks will get to enjoy some heart racing action in this sub-tropical paradise.

Lizmar

Hi all,

if you're interested about what is going on - the following site reports incidents/murders/ etc. 24/7. Bear in mind that this is only about 30000 South Africans on this site - so you can multiply the crimes reported here by 100!

www.eblockwatch.co.za

Susie1979UK

It really saddens me to hear what you have been through in SA and only reinforces why you obviously wanted to leave.

Maybe Jamie's family have been luckier, they have had one car stolen and his mother had her bag snatched from the car. I don't know if that is pure luck but it doesn't marry up with the crime that you speak of.

I can take the answers, that is indeed why I asked the questions but I did say I was aware of the issues SA has to face and asked how we could realistically do it.

It's something we are still mulling over, I am worried about how we would live financially and with heightened security and reduced freedom, who knows what we will decide.

Campbells

Personally I don’t like putting my LIFE at the risk of luck. Kind of like driving down the wrong side of the motorway to see if you can beat the odds

Don’t forget the cost issues involved with the security situation

Vehicle insurance costs
Household contents insurance costs
Medical insurance costs

And of course the big one ……

Security costs

We used an armed response local to our area in Fourways and it was costing us nearly R500 p/month. Security in South Africa is BIG business.

On top of any list is the value of our lives and right on the top of that goes the life of our wee lad. No MasterCard can buy that one. So if luck is your strategy I hope it doesn’t change because for most people in SA they have been exposed to crime in one way or another and it is just that your life is at stake that is the real issue.

These are just the cost factors.

The REAL price you pay is waking up with the neighbours dogs barking and wondering if you are about to be hit. 99% of people have dogs and if your neighbour’s dogs start barking yours probably will too, you’re awake & ALERT.

You hear the roof creak & groan in the middle of the night, you wake and you are ALERT.

The gunfights you frequently hear close by wondering if it is going to end up in your property, these were mostly at 2 – 4 am on most weekends.

The police helicopter flying around with searchlights blazing at any time of the night, you are ALERT as you are wondering if some gangster is going to hop into your property.

You drive home after a wonderful dinner party, you drive close to your house and there is a strange car parked in the street, you don’t go in to your house you are ALERT, you drive around phoning cops that never come, phoning security companies that are trying to deal with hundreds of calls.

You drive home at any time of the day – there is a car that looks like it is following you – you are ALERT and the risk of taking chances is SERIOUSLY – YOUR LIFE.

You go to the supermarket and a group of men stroll in looking like trouble – you are ALERT as supermarkets get hit over & over.

You go to the petrol station, someone squeals their tyres you are ALERT.

These are the MASTERCARD moments = PRICELESS.

It got to the stage where we were totally exhausted after the birth of our wee lad and in between all the other nonsense and attending to a newborn, plus both of us were running our own businesses plus our other commitments, soon takes away the consideration of nice weather.

TIRED. Tired of living life looking over your shoulder wondering if your gamble of just actually being there at a particular place at that time will be the gamble that takes your life.

Life in South Africa.

Cheers

Susie1979UK

Campbells, I appreciate your comments but the things you say are not my experience when I have been there and not the way that my fiancee's family live, this isn't about 'luck' this is about the situation as I know it.

Jamie's family live in Germiston, they do not pay for armed response, I have not been woken up ever when there by searchlights or dogs barking and on a day to day basis, the family don't experience much of that.

So, I'm not talking about 'luck' and I don't appreciate the implication again that I am being naive. I am just trying to get around the fact that the way you speak of South Africa is different to how they speak of South Africa and how they live, day to day.

Campbells

Don’t understand the point you are trying to make here. Are you trying to say that I don’t know the situation in SA ? I thought you said the longest you lived there was for 6 months and your partner has been out of SA for 7 years. A lot can change in 7 years.

Fair enough. But I can tell you that everywhere you go all over SA you will see the various sign boards on the walls outside the houses and the electric fences and razor-wire that state the different armed response companies that the residents subscribe to. I don’t know anyone in SA that didn’t have armed response but there is a first for everything.

Ahem …. you mentioned that Jamie’s folks had had two instances of crime that you felt were “lucky”.

So if you haven’t lived there how can you compare what I am talking about ? Perhaps other members that live in South Africa would care to comment on the “risk” lifestyle there ?

I don’t think you are being naïve I think you are being stupid. But obviously you will carry on and go. Please, please will you break the spell and post back once you get there. It just never seems to happen, of course it does on the HCR site which is just a voice for the ANC propaganda machine.

I really hope that the SA you talk of still exists in Germiston. The last time I was on the East Rand it was looking really grim, Boksburg & Brakpan were starting to resemble the pictures of Hillbrow & down-town Johannesburg – a hovel.

I truly wish you all the very best

Susie1979UK

Campbells,

I am disgusted that you have called me stupid. You have no right to personally insult me.

In reference to the comment about 'luck', I didn't say they had been lucky, I implied that as you imply that crime is a daily occurence for most people and I was pointing out that this is not the case for them.

Yes, a lot can change in 7 years but again, it's not like we don't know anyone that lives there currently who can give their perspective.

I came on this forum for advice, some I have got for which I am grateful but the comments you have made have been rude and judgemental.

Thank you however to others who have given helpful advice, which has been taken on board in our considerations.

Douglas jack

When the criminals read this post it will be like turkeys at christmas,easy pickings.Good luck, your going to need it.

Tegwyn

Folks, there is absolutely no need to attack this person. The fact is that unless you have experienced life with the criminal element, you really cannot comprehend the risks involved. This has nothing to do with intelligence but cold hard experience. It really is difficult for anyone to wrap their heads around this until they, or their loved one faces it personally.

Armed response companies are big business in S.A. but they too are slowly failing. My niece's husband just sold his armed response company and it was one of the biggest in S.A. He covered a lot of the Mpumalanga area. The reason he bailed out was because he couldn't handle the police corruption and increased brutality of the criminal acts. The criminals that were caught were let out as soon as they were handed over to the cops to continue their crime spree again. It has become a lawless circus.

I was back in S.A. just over 10 years ago, and then again fairly recently, (about 8 months ago). The change was mind boggling. I could go on but don't think I need to vent my spleen here. Just understand that it was not a positive experience. I remember Germiston. Had a good friend that used to live there many moons ago. Unfortunately, that area is also part of the hotbed of crime.

I wish you well Suzie, and understand your desire to be with your loved one. Honestly wish he would reconsider, but as someone that lived there and has family still living there, I do understand the pull of family attachments. I hope your experiences in S.A. are positive ones. Keep well and stay safe.

Campbells

Yes you are right I should not have called you stupid. I apologise.

Not to try and justify my rudeness but I seriously hope that you will do some research before deciding to go back there.

I really understand the pull of family & friends, we left SA two years ago and up until that point it was our home and the most difficult thing was leaving our family & friends behind.

All I can say is that family of mine that are still in SA (all Jo’burg) and have been determined to stay and trusted that things will get better have all decided that they have had enough. Two families are moving to Australia & one to NZ and their main reason is to get away from the crime.

Cheers