Moving to Cape Town
Feb 29th 2008, 5:50 pm
#91
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Joined: Jun 2003
Location: North of Auckland
Posts: 1,996
Re: Moving to Cape Town
1. We do not all live locked up behind walls
Actually if you believe it or not there are areas in Cape Town where one can actually feel safe. For example the West Coast beaches here as well as Sunset Beach, Dolphin Beach, Blouberg Beach and Melkbos Beach Area are still safe to walk around for a whole day.
Here we can walk in the streets without worries too! There will always be certain areas we avoid though, like parks.
The beaches here are not deserted but they are never crowded though, we have security here i.e. people walk their dogs, the odd security guard (ok, I know!) and they are just visited by people loving to play with their dogs or playing with their kids enjoying life or simply going for a walk (well, I would not like to walk alone)
Why would I want to go to a township here when I tried to avoid innercities in Europe if I could - regarding that well used it happens everywhere!!) and luckily I never feel threatened when walking outdoors. I did cringe when the story of that lady was told whose kids were worried the gardeners working in the street might kill them.... Haaaaaa?!!! If my kids would mention anything like that I would worry ...and not pack! Teach them what they need to know. So much for having kids learn about other people, cultures and races! Teach them the right things!!!!!
2. Kids riding a bike in the streets unsupervised
My kids ride their bikes in the little back streets, but with my supervision as they are still too young to be outside alone.
In the quiet suburban streets of Germany where I rode my bike when growing up, now my niece is not able to do this anymore as there are a lot of cars, making it impossible to enjoy her outdoors, there are strange people too and sadly also beggars and muggers in the parks, you will not believe it.
One of my classmates was raped and killed on her way to an afterschool activity when we were 17! We always thought we would live in a nice quiet suburb until then!
My kids are still small and do accept being around their mum and dad. What will happen when they are older we will see... You do not find paradise in Europe neither!
Never did I say that life is rosy here in Cape Town, but why scare people away who plan to work and move here?
Let them ask their questions and give them facts and statistics!
3. Outdoors lifestyle in Cape Town is good!
There are still nice places here to live and our outdoors lifestyle is not limited to short one-hour walks, you have great parks (Helderberg, Jonkershoek) close by for walking and hiking, wonderful spacious wine estates for picknicks and walks and as I mentioned many of the beaches are safe enough not to worry about your own safety.
Said enough for now. Just this: It needs people here to see that you have to work for a better world. It does not happen alone!
It is easy to leave "a sinking ship"... It needs people to rock the boat and work together! We are here because there are luckily still enough good people here to rock it!
Actually if you believe it or not there are areas in Cape Town where one can actually feel safe. For example the West Coast beaches here as well as Sunset Beach, Dolphin Beach, Blouberg Beach and Melkbos Beach Area are still safe to walk around for a whole day.
Here we can walk in the streets without worries too! There will always be certain areas we avoid though, like parks.
The beaches here are not deserted but they are never crowded though, we have security here i.e. people walk their dogs, the odd security guard (ok, I know!) and they are just visited by people loving to play with their dogs or playing with their kids enjoying life or simply going for a walk (well, I would not like to walk alone)
Why would I want to go to a township here when I tried to avoid innercities in Europe if I could - regarding that well used it happens everywhere!!) and luckily I never feel threatened when walking outdoors. I did cringe when the story of that lady was told whose kids were worried the gardeners working in the street might kill them.... Haaaaaa?!!! If my kids would mention anything like that I would worry ...and not pack! Teach them what they need to know. So much for having kids learn about other people, cultures and races! Teach them the right things!!!!!
2. Kids riding a bike in the streets unsupervised
My kids ride their bikes in the little back streets, but with my supervision as they are still too young to be outside alone.
In the quiet suburban streets of Germany where I rode my bike when growing up, now my niece is not able to do this anymore as there are a lot of cars, making it impossible to enjoy her outdoors, there are strange people too and sadly also beggars and muggers in the parks, you will not believe it.
One of my classmates was raped and killed on her way to an afterschool activity when we were 17! We always thought we would live in a nice quiet suburb until then!
My kids are still small and do accept being around their mum and dad. What will happen when they are older we will see... You do not find paradise in Europe neither!
Never did I say that life is rosy here in Cape Town, but why scare people away who plan to work and move here?
Let them ask their questions and give them facts and statistics!3. Outdoors lifestyle in Cape Town is good!
There are still nice places here to live and our outdoors lifestyle is not limited to short one-hour walks, you have great parks (Helderberg, Jonkershoek) close by for walking and hiking, wonderful spacious wine estates for picknicks and walks and as I mentioned many of the beaches are safe enough not to worry about your own safety.
Said enough for now. Just this: It needs people here to see that you have to work for a better world. It does not happen alone!
It is easy to leave "a sinking ship"... It needs people to rock the boat and work together! We are here because there are luckily still enough good people here to rock it!
It is very easy to underestimate the intelligence of people and in particular – children. They usually have a sixth sense that is eroded as they are conditioned in later years.
Your comments about teaching them about other cultures. You obviously mean the AFRICAN culture. Personally I think teaching them your African ways would be quite terrifying and even more reason for the little ones to live in fear.
One example:
Your “traditional healers” (camouflage for witch doctors that practice voodoo) that prescribe raping little babies as a cure for HIV AIDS.
Mbeki was quoted by the press by saying “it is the African culture to rape” Therefore what would you explain to your children on that one?
The fact that you have to have security guards on the beaches explains it all
What about Table Mountain, do you regard that as safe? Too many colonial tourists been mugged there and the news is spreading to the other colonials.
You say one of your friends was raped in Germany and the old “it happens anywhere”, I think you are referring to one rape I would imagine 25 years ago? How many rapes is there EACH DAY in South Africa.
Considering you have 47 murders EVERY DAY in South Africa
Have you taught your children the German culture
Feb 29th 2008, 6:07 pm
#92
Banned
Joined: Jun 2003
Location: North of Auckland
Posts: 1,996
Re: Moving to Cape Town
Guess with your arguments nobody can win.
And I do not agree with you: Cape Town is not surrounded by townships, there are a lot of decent places. By night I did not even like to drive around deserted York/England!
I live here now and think I feel alright! The townships you can and will have to avoid. There are no go places everywhere (again).
Well, and I find your wording: "Go tell his parents..."actually quite offensive!.. and useless!
Like I already mentioned before: you always will find a down side if you are looking for one. I try to see my glass half full instead....
And I do not agree with you: Cape Town is not surrounded by townships, there are a lot of decent places. By night I did not even like to drive around deserted York/England!
I live here now and think I feel alright! The townships you can and will have to avoid. There are no go places everywhere (again).
Well, and I find your wording: "Go tell his parents..."actually quite offensive!.. and useless!
Like I already mentioned before: you always will find a down side if you are looking for one. I try to see my glass half full instead....
Never felt threatened once and that was driving a lot at night, getting out in rural places with camera gear and most importantly
Our 5 year old son
I find your comparison unacceptable
South Africa has 47 murders EVERY DAY
NOWHERE in Europe has even close to that so why do you try to make a comparison.
Personally I think that is a VERY REAL DOWNSIDE
Of course, there is also the country’s crisis
No electricity and that is in summer
Feb 29th 2008, 6:14 pm
#93
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,881
Re: Moving to Cape Town
I always find this trendy multiculti Western mission to 'teach people about other cultures and races' rather funny, because, of course, no one intends the little moppets to come to the conclusion that 'other cultures' might be primitive, barbarous, etc. No. What is intended is a process of political indoctrination, until, as Campbells rightly says, children cease to trust the evidence of their own experience in favour of some naive Western transient ideology, which tries to claim that things are equal when they are not.
The great irony is that 'other cultures' do not regard themselves as 'equal' (whatever that is supposed to mean in such a context). Muslims don't regard their 'culture' as equal to Christians' or atheists' or Satanists' way of doing things.
It is only the decadent West, which has done so much to ruin Africa, which tries to 'understand' merely to condone.
We need to 'understand' the terrorist. We need to 'understand' the rapist. We need to reduce evil to 'social deprivation'. And then, when we have come up with all these trite, sub-Marxist formulas for what every child understands instinctively and far better, we still find we understand nothing at all. Hence the constant bewilderment of the West when confronted with Africa.
If only these let's-helicopter-in-and-save-Africa expat Westerners with their transient lives and fat tax-free salary packages had left Africa alone. They always thought they knew better, and when it all blew up in their faces they just shrugged their shoulders and moved on to the next 'good cause'.
The great irony is that 'other cultures' do not regard themselves as 'equal' (whatever that is supposed to mean in such a context). Muslims don't regard their 'culture' as equal to Christians' or atheists' or Satanists' way of doing things.
It is only the decadent West, which has done so much to ruin Africa, which tries to 'understand' merely to condone.
We need to 'understand' the terrorist. We need to 'understand' the rapist. We need to reduce evil to 'social deprivation'. And then, when we have come up with all these trite, sub-Marxist formulas for what every child understands instinctively and far better, we still find we understand nothing at all. Hence the constant bewilderment of the West when confronted with Africa.
If only these let's-helicopter-in-and-save-Africa expat Westerners with their transient lives and fat tax-free salary packages had left Africa alone. They always thought they knew better, and when it all blew up in their faces they just shrugged their shoulders and moved on to the next 'good cause'.
Last edited by Pablo; Feb 29th 2008 at 6:30 pm.
Mar 1st 2008, 4:01 pm
#94
Just Joined
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 7
Re: Moving to Cape Town
We recently spent a month in the UK
Never felt threatened once and that was driving a lot at night, getting out in rural places with camera gear and most importantly
Our 5 year old son
I find your comparison unacceptable
South Africa has 47 murders EVERY DAY
NOWHERE in Europe has even close to that so why do you try to make a comparison.
Personally I think that is a VERY REAL DOWNSIDE
Of course, there is also the country’s crisis
No electricity and that is in summer
Never felt threatened once and that was driving a lot at night, getting out in rural places with camera gear and most importantly
Our 5 year old son
I find your comparison unacceptable
South Africa has 47 murders EVERY DAY
NOWHERE in Europe has even close to that so why do you try to make a comparison.
Personally I think that is a VERY REAL DOWNSIDE
Of course, there is also the country’s crisis
No electricity and that is in summer
I do not want to play down the number of murders.
Never intended to do!!!!Yes, crime is a downside, never tried to simplify. Electricity Crisis needs to be solved that is for sure! Just tried to show the upsides of living in Cape Town too.
Mar 1st 2008, 4:24 pm
#95
Just Joined
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 7
Re: Moving to Cape Town
I always find this trendy multiculti Western mission to 'teach people about other cultures and races' rather funny, because, of course, no one intends the little moppets to come to the conclusion that 'other cultures' might be primitive, barbarous, etc. No. What is intended is a process of political indoctrination, until, as Campbells rightly says, children cease to trust the evidence of their own experience in favour of some naive Western transient ideology, which tries to claim that things are equal when they are not.
Multikulti is not trendy.
It is a way of thinking. Some societies just are, ie. fortunately learned to become multicultural. Otherwise you see what happens. See also the U.S.A. the big melting pot per se or Singapore where there live chinese, malay, indian, european cultures happily together. And again I know that from experience. Why not living like they do? Actually it is not a fantasy.By the way we do and did teach the kids the German - well and English , where they grew up -culture but not only that. They have already experienced other more different cultures as well. We luckily have friends from so many different backgrounds and so they do not care about living multikulti how you put it. It just enriches their lives. And for sure their friends lives too.
It is workable. That is my story. And we are not the high flying helicopter helpers
you mention.....And I still think your lines are offensive. It is not me trying to play down things. It is you turning around everything. You compare not me.
Mar 1st 2008, 4:34 pm
#96
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,669
Re: Moving to Cape Town
You can try to show the upsides till the cows come home.
Unfortunately, the very real DOWNSIDES eclipse any good that there might be there.
Namely, the crime situation, which is horrific beyond imagination - particularly the rape, murder, robbery, car hijacking, torture in your own homes, etc.
The electricity crisis will not be resolved for at least 20 years according to one of the former top Eskom engineers whom I am familiar with.
I think that any western Europeans wanting to move there, should take a VERY close look at what has been happening in Kenya the last few weeks.
Kenya has always been regarded as one of the most stable countries in Africa. But overnight, literally, it went from stability to a nightmare situation of genocide and near civil war.
This is Africa. South Africa itself is an absolute nightmare to live in. It will take but a little spark to set it on the path of genocide. Urban legend has it that it will be the death of Mandela which will be such a spark. I am glad I don't have to worry about finding out if it is legend or fact.
sky, would you still be posting the same thing if one of your kids was raped or if you were all in your home enjoying a movie eating popcorn and someone broke into your house and attacked you and your family? Holding a gun to your kids' head? Or you had countless family members and friends murdered, raped, tortured?
Us South Africans, who have lived there all our lives or for many many years, and have a large circle of friends/family, have had that happen to COUNTLESS numbers of them as well as work colleagues. There isn't a single person in South Africa who can say they don't know someone who has had that happen to them or family/friends.
In the city I live in currently, one of the largest areas in the USA, I don't know of a single person who has been raped or murdered, though it happens. Up till a few months ago, there wasn't a single person I knew who had been burgled even. And I've been here for 11 years and have a fairly large circle of acquaintances. They react with disbelief when I relate some of what we've experienced or our friends/family have experienced in S.A.
Just because it hasn't happened to your family, please do not try to portray S.A. as a haven, which it isn't. It is the very opposite. To think it will never happen to your family is naivete beyond simpletoness.
Unfortunately, the very real DOWNSIDES eclipse any good that there might be there.
Namely, the crime situation, which is horrific beyond imagination - particularly the rape, murder, robbery, car hijacking, torture in your own homes, etc.
The electricity crisis will not be resolved for at least 20 years according to one of the former top Eskom engineers whom I am familiar with.
I think that any western Europeans wanting to move there, should take a VERY close look at what has been happening in Kenya the last few weeks.
Kenya has always been regarded as one of the most stable countries in Africa. But overnight, literally, it went from stability to a nightmare situation of genocide and near civil war.
This is Africa. South Africa itself is an absolute nightmare to live in. It will take but a little spark to set it on the path of genocide. Urban legend has it that it will be the death of Mandela which will be such a spark. I am glad I don't have to worry about finding out if it is legend or fact.
sky, would you still be posting the same thing if one of your kids was raped or if you were all in your home enjoying a movie eating popcorn and someone broke into your house and attacked you and your family? Holding a gun to your kids' head? Or you had countless family members and friends murdered, raped, tortured?
Us South Africans, who have lived there all our lives or for many many years, and have a large circle of friends/family, have had that happen to COUNTLESS numbers of them as well as work colleagues. There isn't a single person in South Africa who can say they don't know someone who has had that happen to them or family/friends.
In the city I live in currently, one of the largest areas in the USA, I don't know of a single person who has been raped or murdered, though it happens. Up till a few months ago, there wasn't a single person I knew who had been burgled even. And I've been here for 11 years and have a fairly large circle of acquaintances. They react with disbelief when I relate some of what we've experienced or our friends/family have experienced in S.A.
Just because it hasn't happened to your family, please do not try to portray S.A. as a haven, which it isn't. It is the very opposite. To think it will never happen to your family is naivete beyond simpletoness.
Mar 1st 2008, 4:47 pm
#97
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,881
Re: Moving to Cape Town
Yes, a trendy 'way of thinking'. It is a naive and superficial ideology. You cut out all those pesky bits about 'other cultures' that you don't like - e.g., Female genital mutilation, honour killings, forced marriages, Suttee, sexism, you name it - you reduce religion to a folk-festival, and then you claim, patronisingly, that you are oh-so tolerant of all those wonderful other cultures with their lovely food and exotic dances and funny clothes. Do me a favour. You have no idea. You have created a Western theme-park and you call it multi-culturalism.
As for 'learning about other cultures and races', you have reached the conclusion even before you begin the investigation.
As for 'learning about other cultures and races', you have reached the conclusion even before you begin the investigation.
Last edited by Pablo; Mar 1st 2008 at 5:39 pm.
Mar 1st 2008, 7:03 pm
#98
Banned
Joined: Jun 2003
Location: North of Auckland
Posts: 1,996
Re: Moving to Cape Town
Just one little note on the side: Why do children cease to trust the evidence of their own experience? When they are walking the street with their mummy they do not have the experience to reflect that gardeners might kill innocent people, I guess. Somebody must have told them. That is why we have to teach children that they are not allowed to talk to strangers or take their sweets. Otherwise they would trust everybody. So much for teaching the children about other cultures and races.
Multikulti is not trendy. It is a way of thinking. Some societies just are, ie. fortunately learned to become multicultural. Otherwise you see what happens. See also the U.S.A. the big melting pot per se or Singapore where there live chinese, malay, indian, european cultures happily together. And again I know that from experience. Why not living like they do? Actually it is not a fantasy.
By the way we do and did teach the kids the German - well and English , where they grew up -culture but not only that. They have already experienced other more different cultures as well. We luckily have friends from so many different backgrounds and so they do not care about living multikulti how you put it. It just enriches their lives. And for sure their friends lives too.
It is workable. That is my story. And we are not the high flying helicopter helpersyou mention.....
And I still think your lines are offensive. It is not me trying to play down things. It is you turning around everything. You compare not me.
Multikulti is not trendy.
It is a way of thinking. Some societies just are, ie. fortunately learned to become multicultural. Otherwise you see what happens. See also the U.S.A. the big melting pot per se or Singapore where there live chinese, malay, indian, european cultures happily together. And again I know that from experience. Why not living like they do? Actually it is not a fantasy.By the way we do and did teach the kids the German - well and English , where they grew up -culture but not only that. They have already experienced other more different cultures as well. We luckily have friends from so many different backgrounds and so they do not care about living multikulti how you put it. It just enriches their lives. And for sure their friends lives too.
It is workable. That is my story. And we are not the high flying helicopter helpers
you mention.....And I still think your lines are offensive. It is not me trying to play down things. It is you turning around everything. You compare not me.
2. Whatever you want to call the idea that cultures can mix it is not happening in AFRICA. You refer to Singapore; yes it works because quite simply they have law and order. They have the death penalty.
3. You think the lines are offensive because you don’t like to be shown that your system (or whatever you want to call it) does not and IS NOT working in South Africa. It does work in other countries , because they do not have the African CULTURE of dictatorship & lawlessness.
Mar 1st 2008, 7:55 pm
#99
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Joined: Feb 2008
Location: Spain/Wales
Posts: 313
Re: Moving to Cape Town
Without ever meaning to be personal, but this is a classic example of desensitisation (spelled that right?). These people are in complete denial and must have to work quite hard every day to convince themselves along with most of the population that they have something special and that it is all worth it and all normal. Worth it, to live in fear and to flick through the local rag over the murders and rapes as if it were nothing and as if our children won't notice! Our local paper reports things like thefts from sheds and bicycle stolen outside a supermarket! My daughter reads them too me and I laugh (she does not know how happy it makes me to hear those stories). As far as I am concerned the only special thing about SA anymore is the especially high (and depraved) crime rate and the death rate on the roads. I always said if it's not the crime that'll get you in SA it'll be the roads.
My breaks for the south africa of my youth, but it is as if that country has dropped off the map. There are countries as beautiful, if not more, countries with better weather, countries with nice/r people, lush houses, nice restaurants, etc. etc. and yippee for those of us that have found them, some with a combination of those. And importantly, there is no price to pay for those countries.
Having had to use my gun in the same room as my 4 month old child, I can say it ain't worth it and it ain't normal. If I had kept my family in SA, I would have downright failed them.
My breaks for the south africa of my youth, but it is as if that country has dropped off the map. There are countries as beautiful, if not more, countries with better weather, countries with nice/r people, lush houses, nice restaurants, etc. etc. and yippee for those of us that have found them, some with a combination of those. And importantly, there is no price to pay for those countries.
Having had to use my gun in the same room as my 4 month old child, I can say it ain't worth it and it ain't normal. If I had kept my family in SA, I would have downright failed them.
Mar 1st 2008, 10:54 pm
#100
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,424
Re: Moving to Cape Town
Good post pugsy
Mar 2nd 2008, 8:52 am
#101
Just Joined
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 7
Re: Moving to Cape Town
Without ever meaning to be personal, but this is a classic example of desensitisation (spelled that right?). These people are in complete denial and must have to work quite hard every day to convince themselves along with most of the population that they have something special and that it is all worth it and all normal. .
Actually now I do not know why I am any longer replying. I know where I stand, so I do not want to waste any of my our your time. But naiv? Simple? In denial? Got it!
Well, just one last question: Are you on this forum to warn innocent people or just to commiserate your life? This is a very negative forum and I am shocked! Just slap people and find them guilty of whatever.
That is all from me in Cape Town. I will not put more on fire.
Have a good and happy life where ever you might be.
and I mean it!
Mar 2nd 2008, 9:04 am
#102
Senior Moment
Joined: Jan 2006
Location: On the edge
Posts: 20,460
Re: Moving to Cape Town
You all have your opinions, that is always clear, based on what has happened to you / your friends and your life experience
SKY08 is clearly happy with the life she is living there and good luck to her, its her choice and she chose to share this with you. She has made it quite clear she acknowledges the crime and precautions that need to be taken.
There was no necessity to attack her personally
Another new poster leaves the forum doubtless feeling bullied ..... again, well done!!
SKY08 is clearly happy with the life she is living there and good luck to her, its her choice and she chose to share this with you. She has made it quite clear she acknowledges the crime and precautions that need to be taken.
There was no necessity to attack her personally
Another new poster leaves the forum doubtless feeling bullied ..... again, well done!!
Mar 2nd 2008, 9:46 am
#103
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 733
Re: Moving to Cape Town
many south africans can't help it- they were raised as bullies...and like most bullies, when the sh*t hits the fan, most turn into babies- take the famous four at the university of freestate.... "we're not racist" ??? doh!
but then you all need to know- africa is not for sissies anyway.
oh before anyone questions my pedigree again- born & bred rhodesian.
be happy.
but then you all need to know- africa is not for sissies anyway
.oh before anyone questions my pedigree again- born & bred rhodesian.
be happy.
You all have your opinions, that is always clear, based on what has happened to you / your friends and your life experience
SKY08 is clearly happy with the life she is living there and good luck to her, its her choice and she chose to share this with you. She has made it quite clear she acknowledges the crime and precautions that need to be taken.
There was no necessity to attack her personally
Another new poster leaves the forum doubtless feeling bullied ..... again, well done!!
SKY08 is clearly happy with the life she is living there and good luck to her, its her choice and she chose to share this with you. She has made it quite clear she acknowledges the crime and precautions that need to be taken.
There was no necessity to attack her personally
Another new poster leaves the forum doubtless feeling bullied ..... again, well done!!
Mar 2nd 2008, 10:22 am
#104
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,881
Re: Moving to Cape Town
Nobody is driving anyone away. They are all welcome argue their case. They are strident enough with their views when it suits them, with the line that 'crime happens everywhere' and if only everyone would 'be positive' then the Jackanory world they live in would be hunkydory, and all the rest. But they don't care to be challenged.
Not all opinions are equal.
Not all opinions are equal.
Mar 2nd 2008, 10:48 am
#105
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 733
Re: Moving to Cape Town
that's half true as well- I think sky08 should remember to come back here and warn others if (god forbid) she loses a child, gets raped, sees a loved one get shot, raped, thrown into boiling water, cut slowly into pieces, like 1000's of farmers have been (forget the statistics on the townies).
The posts are still extremely negative though- hey redlippie, if I comb my hair will you put red lipstick on
The posts are still extremely negative though- hey redlippie, if I comb my hair will you put red lipstick on
Nobody is driving anyone away. They are all welcome argue their case. They are strident enough with their views when it suits them, with the line that 'crime happens everywhere' and if only everyone would 'be positive' then the Jackanory world they live in would be hunkydory, and all the rest. But they don't care to be challenged.
Not all opinions are equal.
Not all opinions are equal.