whalewatcher

Yes, Stalin's USSR comes to mind, where government officials were sacked and scientists denied advancement if they failed to agree with Lysenko's version of evolution.

And more recently, fundamentalist-dominated Washington under Bush, where climate change science has been systematically undermined.

But the UK? I can't think of an example there where Ministers have been sacked for asserting scientific consensus. But then I've been in SA for a decade, did I miss something while I've been away?

6000

Wow.
Such venom.
Such rhetoric.
Such nonsense.

Read sweetie, read! Everyone knew she was on her final warning. She overstepped the mark. Twice. In a fortnight. Silly?

Outspoken politician gets boot? Hardly a big story.

Why is Tshabalala-Msimang still there? Cos her and Mbeki are allies, cronies. Yes it stinks. I hate it in "New Labour" too. But it happens. It's sleaze, it's bordering on corruption, nepotism, but it's not solely an SA problem, is it?

News is what you make it and you're reading so much more than there is to read - of course Mbeki wanted her out - she was slagging his Government off left right and centre. But to make this solely an HIV issue - well, that's a little narrow-minded.
Still, you want to believe everything Zackie Achmat spouts - you do that. But don't expect the rest of us to take his - or your - views as gospel. I've seen with my own eyes treatment centres he says don't exist. He's an activist. He has... gasp... an agenda.

I can't be arsed to go back and check on your views on the Travelgate saga or Pumzile's Dubai jaunt, but I would imagine they were pretty damning to the Government and its lack of action against the accused.
So the Government listens to the people and tightens up on illegal travel - next culprit gets the boot. And then Madlala-Routledge does something really stupid.

Shame - she could have made such a difference from within. But she had to go and balls it all up.

One last thing. Don't call me deliberately dishonest. In fact, don't call me dishonest at all. You may have your own "cronies" in high places, but, as I'm sure you're about to point out - just because that's the case, it doesn't make it right, now does it?

6000

In her own words, WW - she wasn't sacked for anything to do with the HIV issue - scientific consensus had nothing to do with it.

Yes - everyone thinks it was her views on Manto and HIV, but if that were the case, why wasn't she sacked when she made those views public?

She was sacked for taking an unauthorised trip abroad.
She was sacked for making an unsanctioned trip to a healthcare facility.

Crappy rules, you might argue, but she signed up to those rules and she broke them.

And isn't it strange, how when she has NOTHING to lose, when she has ALL the support of her followers and the non-ANC public, when she can talk freely without ANY governmental restraints, she doesn't mention the HIV issue as being behind her sacking in her "landmark" first interview?
And surely, she should know better than any of us.

Pablo

Mbeki has blood on his hands - both his continuing stubborn denialism, and his absurd "quiet diplomacy" with Zimbabwe.

Too many left-wingers in the West are just too eager to take him at his word, because they just can't face the alternative.

And too many white "useful idiots" are only too pleased to act as apologists, no matter how gross his incompetence.

As for the sacked deputy minister, the article says that her application to make that trip to the Aids conference in Spain was stamped "Approved" and then this was crossed out by Mbeki when she was already in the air on her way there. She came straight back.

I note that Mr 6000 continues to try and equate this disgraceful ongoing corruption and incompetence with the UK. It won't wash.

Pablo

Pablo

Oh please!

6000

That rather different from WHAT SHE SAID on the radio this morning.
EDIT: Dare I say that it's difficult to stay in touch with the reality of living in SA when all you have to go on is commercially-driven websites?!?

Hmm - WMD anyone?

6000

Are you suggesting that Mbeki has an agenda?

Pablo

Mbeki's public outspoken denialism, supported by his lackeys, continued for years. Eventually the international ridicule spilled over into the mainstream media and he began to realise what an utter fool he was making of himself. Then, through gritted teeth, he made a half-hearted retraction.

Politically, now, he cannot afford to sack one of his ministers for refusing to toe his denialist line. So he has had to find an excuse. He cannot afford to admit the true reason publicly.

Mr 6000 himself said that it was widely felt that this minister had it coming. Why? Because she refused to play to Mbeki's denialist tune, that's why.

Mr 6000 says there are 7 million people in South Africa with HIV. Seven million! That would equate, in population terms, to 10 million people in the UK having HIV. And still Mbeki would rather play Big Man in the Village than tackle the real problem. And still there are apologists who are prepared to cheer him on.

Pablo

Pablo

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Tegwyn

Nah, not likely.

6000

Is that what he told you? Or is that just your opinion?
Mbeki - whatever he has said in the past - is no longer an "AIDS denialist". The TAC et al are determined to hound him because of his past, but in actual fact, right now, the Government is (in general) getting the right drugs to the right places and the right patients at the right time.

And even if that were the case, more fool her for playing right into his hands.

No. I did not say that. Don't put words in my mouth.

Yes - she had it coming, not for the reasons you suggest, but because she was coming out with wild statements and criticisms of the health department - far more stuff than just HIV. If you lived here, maybe you'd have seen that.
And then, to top it off, she goes and breaks the rules which she'd signed up to?
Well shock - if I slate my boss publicly and then break the terms of my contract, I'd expect to be sacked. Wouldn't you?

Ah - so we can compare stuff to the UK when it suits you, then?

Maybe you should come over here sometime - I was in Nyanga this morning, working at a clinic and watching as patients were treated for TB and HIV. That's not propaganda, that's not rhetoric or words - that's reality.
Sad to say for the doubters, but actually, the Government's HIV policies are working. If they weren't, someone like me working with HIV/TB patients would kick up a fuss - and I did when their policies weren't working a couple of years back.

Only fair that credit is given where it's due - they have got their act together and it is working. I see it working most every day.

Of course, I wait to be corrected by you guys n thousand miles away.

6000

Ja well, fine. Whatever.

They changed the rules on travel* (for whatever reason) and then she broke them. As she stated on the radio this morning.




*which was what the public wanted

Pablo

Seven million are hiv positive. 300,000, perhaps, are receiving anti-retrovirals. What about the rest who should be on drugs but aren't? What about the shameful collapse of the public health system? What about the hiv specialists who, in despair, were driven out of South Africa because the government deliberately thwarted them and prevented them treating people? The damage has been done.

I note you place Mbeki's denialism in quote marks. Do you deny it? I have not seen him make a clear unambiguous retraction.

While hundreds of thousands of South Africans were dying needlessly, ANC party members were receiving the best HIV anti-retroviral treatment money could buy. Denialism for the masses, but hey, when it comes to Top Dog, then no expense spared, and as 'Eurocentric' as you please.

I suspect the truth will come out about this minister's sacking.

For the rest, Mr 6000, I simply don't believe you. Oh yes, certainly I believe you are seeing hiv and TB patients treated in Nyanga, as you say. But I don't believe Mbeki has abandoned his Denialism. I don't believe the Deputy Health Minister was drummed out of her job because Mbeki has discovered a passion for clean government. I don't believe Manto has bought into a proper hiv policy. I think they are paying lip service to what is truly required - and their acquiescence is through gritted teeth, dragged to the water because they must, but refusing to drink - except for the occasional sip, just to ward off the loudest of their critics. And this is not because they genuinely believe in the nonsense of Denialism. It is because they would rather preside over the needless deaths of millions rather than admit they were wrong. Just like Mugabe.

Pablo

Cheetah7

You can bin the viagra with me Rush,

Rushman

I see you've finally nicked my old avatar...you are not alone, some other imposter in the dingo forum nabbed it too.